US Pilots Labor Discussion

[fatherabraham]

The solution is the Nic. This vote proves what we have always known, separate ops and west fleet minimums will do till we merge

The majority disagree on your solution.
2nd sentence I think majority agrees with.
Therefore, we need to unite with above premise of separate ops and force this slimey mgt team into serious negotiations for betterment of all. Obviously past practice has failed all. Can we agree on that?

FA

 

[Beancounter]

The solution is the Nic. This vote proves what we have always known, separate ops and west fleet minimums will do till we merge

I wonder if Doug is starting to realize he's in a catch-22 position? He wants a combined pilot group to help in getting a merger started, but realistically the only way to combine this group is to merge with another airline.

 

[Beancounter]

The majority disagree on your solution.
2nd sentence I think majority agrees with.
Therefore, we need to unite with above premise of separate ops and force this slimey mgt team into serious negotiations for betterment of all. Obviously past practice has failed all. Can we agree on that?

FA

FA,

I can understand that you would like to remain separate and see a pay raise. Doug won't go for that, I can almost guarantee it.

As for help from the west. We'll have to see how this new union team behaves. If it is more of the same old, viscous attacks and no representation for the west, I wouldn't expect much help. We will see.

Bean

 

[CallawayGolf]

I wonder if Doug is starting to realize he's in a catch-22 position? He wants a combined pilot group to help in getting a merger started, but realistically the only way to combine this group is to merge with another airline.

I don't see the unmerged pilot group as being genuine impediment to a merger. If the investors want a merger a merger will happen.

Besides, there is another way to get to a JCBA. Once Silver rules, either way really, then both parties will go back to the negotiating table. If USAPA stalls or if the east pilots are shown to be intransigent toward ratifying a nic-inclusive contract, there will be a release to self-help. Then, bingo you have a company-imposed, nic-inclusive contract and USAPA will have insufficient support to mount a tactical self-help offensive and this will all be resolved. An infinite delay will be impossible once the court resolves the S22 question to the satisfaction of the NMB representative.

 

[nic4us]

Despite his great video work, I think Fergie underestimated the resolve of the East pilots... we're not willing to sacrifice principle for a bigger paycheck. The message is clear. West's pyrrhic "victory" with the NiC will be denied through contract ratification votes,even with a pro-NIC court ruling, until the East majority is lost. Only retirements will do that... better hope the retirement age is not raised (or eliminated) or you may be waiting a really long time. Most of us are in the declining expense years (kids done with college, empty nesters, homes paid off, used to our budgets). We can live on these wages well into the future.

Time for the West to come to the table and COMPROMISE. And none of this... "Boo-hoo who would represent us?" stuff. Your LEC is duly elected by your pilots and could bargain with the USAPA at large to find some solution. Instead you continue to "hold out" for a victory that it will take many years to financially recover when your beloved NIC is, if ever, adopted.

If I am typical, I told my wife years ago that our pay would probably not increase during the remainder of my career. I explained that although I only lost about 150 numbers with the NIC that I had to support the Jr. Captains and F/O's I fly with that were really screwed. They are my friends...I owe that to them. I explained if it meant a sacrifice, so be it. She said she was proud of me!

A solution is possible but I don't expect it. Like a nasty divorce fight, the lawyers are the only winners. But don't say that it is impossible...that's a cop out.

1. You most ceretainly are willing to sacrifice principle. Otherwise, you would have an ounce of integrity and drop the scab mentality of stealing from the West.

2. I got your compromise right here.......the Nic, unmodified.

3. You did not lose 150 numbers with the Nic. But the 150 West pilots that are rightfully ahead of you did loses at a minimum 517 numbers when your job was saved during the AWA aquisition of your bankrupt company that could no longer make your payroll.

4. You are going to soil yourself when Silver rules.....not because of what Silver says, but because of what AOL is going to say in reply. Perhaps you can join 767one in retirement by that time.

 

[fatherabraham]

FA,

I can understand that you would like to remain separate and see a pay raise. Doug won't go for that, I can almost guarantee it.

As for help from the west. We'll have to see how this new union team behaves. If it is more of the same old, viscous attacks and no representation for the west, I wouldn't expect much help. We will see.

Bean

Bean,
The seniority dispute obviously will not change in new regime. What I'm suggesting is that WE stop allowing DP to IMO arbitrarily pick a union disagreement and claim he can't negotiate till issue resolved. It's always been total BS excuse IMO.
He's the fricken CEO , he has plenty of options!
The west folk not taking him to task on separate ops/industry pay only helps him get away with it. I suggest we all need to agree to disagree on the seniority dispute and move on. Leave SCOTUS to resolve.
BTW....I agree USAPA needs to treat you same as me!

FA

 

[CallawayGolf]

Bean,
The seniority dispute obviously will not change in new regime. What I'm suggesting is that WE stop allowing DP to IMO arbitrarily pick a union disagreement and claim he can't negotiate till issue resolved. It's always been total BS excuse IMO.
He's the fricken CEO , he has plenty of options!
The west folk not taking him to task on separate ops/industry pay only helps him get away with it. I suggest we all need to agree to disagree on the seniority dispute and move on. Leave SCOTUS to resolve.
BTW....I agree USAPA needs to treat you same as me!

FA

There has been an offer on the table for five years. Take it or use every means of dealy to avoid it, but the east pilots only have themselves to blame if getting a new and better contract is truly an objective. I don't think it is based on USAPA's actions, a mindset of failure that was reaffirmed with today's election results.

 

[Pi brat]

The results of the votes themselves are not surprising, but the ability for the vocal minority of AFO's to pursuade so many that the boogey man is still real and that voting to give the puppeteers the reins of USAPA again certainly is. So many were duped into believing that a vote for Ferguson and the Nic were one and the same, when what they voted against really was reconciliation and unity.

They have cast a vote for disunity and it will be honored. Daily.

Amazing. Simply amazing that the above is what you would get out of the election and that there are 3 people that would agree with you.

You talk about the east not paying attention, well that is system wide. What this election says is that things are exactly as they were 5 years ago. As you have been told, the east is still willing to live with LOA 93 over the Nic. Do you really think that there are that many guys over here that are being led by AFO's?

That or enough easties saw that someone that would promise an industry LEADING contract under our circumstances couldn't be trusted.

 

[fatherabraham]

1. You most ceretainly are willing to sacrifice principle. Otherwise, you would have an ounce of integrity and drop the scab mentality of stealing from the West.

2. I got your compromise right here.......the Nic, unmodified.

3. You did not lose 150 numbers with the Nic. But the 150 West pilots that are rightfully ahead of you did loses at a minimum 517 numbers when your job was saved during the AWA aquisition of your bankrupt company that could no longer make your payroll.

4. You are going to soil yourself when Silver rules.....not because of what Silver says, but because of what AOL is going to say in reply. Perhaps you can join 767one in retirement by that time.

Nic,
Is that you Paul?

FA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mN63VsDD0Mg&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[high*flyer]

I don't see the unmerged pilot group as being genuine impediment to a merger. If the investors want a merger a merger will happen.

Besides, there is another way to get to a JCBA. Once Silver rules, either way really, then both parties will go back to the negotiating table. If USAPA stalls or if the east pilots are shown to be intransigent toward ratifying a nic-inclusive contract, there will be a release to self-help. Then, bingo you have a company-imposed, nic-inclusive contract and USAPA will have insufficient support to mount a tactical self-help offensive and this will all be resolved. An infinite delay will be impossible once the court resolves the S22 question to the satisfaction of the NMB representative.
[/quote

......I've mentioned that scenerio to several I've flown with, with one additional benefit to Parker; the west would accept any contract that included the NIC ...

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

I don't see the unmerged pilot group as being genuine impediment to a merger. If the investors want a merger a merger will happen.

Besides, there is another way to get to a JCBA. Once Silver rules, either way really, then both parties will go back to the negotiating table. If USAPA stalls or if the east pilots are shown to be intransigent toward ratifying a nic-inclusive contract, there will be a release to self-help. Then, bingo you have a company-imposed, nic-inclusive contract and USAPA will have insufficient support to mount a tactical self-help offensive and this will all be resolved. An infinite delay will be impossible once the court resolves the S22 question to the satisfaction of the NMB representative.

REALLY? Seems they wanted a DELTA, UNITED merger, goin to the 9th either way EAST never giving up scope or COC! MM!

 

[767one]

1. You most ceretainly are willing to sacrifice principle. Otherwise, you would have an ounce of integrity and drop the scab mentality of stealing from the West.

2. I got your compromise right here.......the Nic, unmodified.

3. You did not lose 150 numbers with the Nic. But the 150 West pilots that are rightfully ahead of you did loses at a minimum 517 numbers when your job was saved during the AWA aquisition of your bankrupt company that could no longer make your payroll.

4. You are going to soil yourself when Silver rules.....not because of what Silver says, but because of what AOL is going to say in reply. Perhaps you can join 767one in retirement by that time.

At this point I don't think anyone on either side will themselves over anything that happens. It will just be another day.

 

[767one]

I agree but do you expect that to change with Hummel and Bradford?

It will now be the other side shooting at the castle. Now we will hear the screams of "the president can't do that" now that their guy is not the president anymore. I fully expect charges, counter charges, appeals and more law suits.

Come on say it with me. 3 more years, 3 more years!!!!!

8 months and change....

 

[Phoenix]

1. You most ceretainly are willing to sacrifice principle. Otherwise, you would have an ounce of integrity and drop the scab mentality of stealing from the West.

2. I got your compromise right here.......the Nic, unmodified.

3. You did not lose 150 numbers with the Nic. But the 150 West pilots that are rightfully ahead of you did loses at a minimum 517 numbers when your job was saved during the AWA aquisition of your bankrupt company that could no longer make your payroll.

4. You are going to soil yourself when Silver rules.....not because of what Silver says, but because of what AOL is going to say in reply. Perhaps you can join 767one in retirement by that time.

Grow up.

 

[Phoenix]

The solution is the Nic.

The 9th called it a West preferred solution. Who can argue with that?