US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

So how do you east scabs feel about USAPA hiring a merger attorney with no merger experience? The APA is sleeping well tonight.

For those that don't know Szymanski is usapa's general counsel and has no experience in mergers or seniority integrations.

The good thing about this is Szymanski has a job interview. Let's see how Judge Silver rules. If she hands him and usapa their ass we will know he is probably not the guy to go up against AA lawyer.

After reading the filings in PHX I have a very good idea how that is going to go.

 

[cleardirect]

If you mean "doomed" to remain USAirways, I'll take that compared to being pared with the arrogant fools from Mesa Grande, which even your serial drunk admitted would last, at most, another 30 days.

It is always good looking for a suitor (USAirways) vs heading for certain debtor prison (A&W). Thanks for your fantasy. Too bad it has little in common with reality. Get used to the up-and-coming PHX downsizing. Have a good day, boys.

Ummmm! You had better check the video again. What Parker said was AAA would have been out of business in 30 days not AWA.

What was Us Airways plan for exiting BK the second? Oh that's right Parker said you had none.

 

[cleardirect]

The FAPA pilot filed a law suit in federal court complaining the the M/B A/B arbitration was not fair. The judge tossed it. A few select quotes form the federal judge. I know you east guys will say that he was somehow biased against the FAPA guys.

In short, the Plaintiffs do not complain that they were precluded from presenting evidence during the evidentiary hearings or that the Arbitrator refused to consider evidence presented during those hearings. Rather, they complain about his refusal to consider evidence they submitted in the form of appendices to their comments on the draft award, after the presentation of evidence had closed.

Where have I heard this before? Trying to argue after the record is closed. Redo are not allowed boys.

The Plaintiffs’ argument about the Arbitrator’s refusal to consider relevant evidence is without merit. The Plaintiffs assert the Award should be vacated because the Award bears no rational relationship to the Arbitrator’s underlying findings and does not explain how it derives from the Dispute Resolution Agreement and the fair and equitable standard.
The Plaintiffs do not dispute any of the Arbitrator’s factual findings. The Plaintiffs complain that the Arbitrator failed to consider the impact of his award on the future allocation of jobs among the pre-transaction groups and refused to consider evidence relevant to that factor.

The Plaintiffs are asking this court to review the merits of the seniority integration devised by the Arbitrator, and the court has no authority to do so under the Railway Labor Act or the McCaskill-Bond Amendment.

The Award is not fundamentally flawed. In the final Award, the Arbitrator described the proposals submitted by the four labor organizations, as well as RAH’s position. (Award at 24- 28.) He explained his reasons for rejecting those proposals. (Award at 35.) With respect to the Frontier pilots’ proposal, the Arbitrator stated that it “posit incorrectly that [its] own pilot group alone is entitled to first class placement at the head of the table, while asserting that less valuable overall contributions warrant placement of the other primary contributor to the merged enterprise well below the salt.” (Award at 35.) The Arbitrator further stated, “FAPA’s proposal also brings to the table overly complicated and expansive conditions and restrictions . . . .” (Id.)

In short, the Plaintiffs have not shown that the Award was procedurally unfair or that the Arbitrator exceeded his authority.

Here we have another federal court saying that arbitration is final and binding. Whatever the arbitrator decides is it. Federal court have no authority to look at the merits of the arbitration. That alone is the arbitrator.

Make your case and take your chances, redos are not allowed.

Also read closely the part about an arbitrator does not have to consider future impact of the seniority list. You guys do know what a PID is right?

 

[nic4us]

And remember Traitor, number 1 is ahead of number 2.

Says the scab supporter full of number 2!

 

[Zone5]

You would lose that bet.

If you knew the first thing about our contract you would realize how wrong you are.

nic4us, post #36282: "With PBS and our contract, it does not work the same way as the east for blockholders. Also, this is a big point of contention amongst the West.

But, I agree, you make a valid point. I would not call it stealing though....more like...umm...hmmm..maybe stealing is a good word for lack of a better one.


Standing by for incomeing from West time whores."
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I admit I don't know all the nuances of the West contract. My understanding, based on information posted by West pilots in the past, is that your average blocks are 83 hours and that you have the ability to modify your schedules through a variety of means, flying up to 99+ hours if so desired. To choose to do so, while you have fellow pilots on furlough, makes one (as nic4us says) a "time whore". We have a few of them out East and they do a good job of keeping some reserves from breaking guarantee. As greedy as that is, it pales in comparison to keeping a pilot on furlough!

I'm a simple man, please explain to me "how wrong I am"


seajay

 

[AAviator]

Such deperation on the west side alot of them will be on the street with the upcoming AMR merge. Should have paid attention at Wye River. Oh well.

 

[EastUS1]

I've no wish to see the good folks at AA afflicted with the likes of US's management and host of other issues...after all; I do have a few friends at AA. With the sorry numbers of furloughs/layoffs already announced at American.....well....anyone who can actually apply laughing-boy stickers to the thought of furloughs anywhere is cursed with a situational awareness level that would afford distress to the most marginal of sea sponges....just sayin'......

 

[cleardirect]

nic4us, post #36282: "With PBS and our contract, it does not work the same way as the east for blockholders. Also, this is a big point of contention amongst the West.

But, I agree, you make a valid point. I would not call it stealing though....more like...umm...hmmm..maybe stealing is a good word for lack of a better one.


Standing by for incomeing from West time whores."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I admit I don't know all the nuances of the West contract. My understanding, based on information posted by West pilots in the past, is that your average blocks are 83 hours and that you have the ability to modify your schedules through a variety of means, flying up to 99+ hours if so desired. To choose to do so, while you have fellow pilots on furlough, makes one (as nic4us says) a "time whore". We have a few of them out East and they do a good job of keeping some reserves from breaking guarantee. As greedy as that is, it pales in comparison to keeping a pilot on furlough!

I'm a simple man, please explain to me "how wrong I am"


seajay

You are wrong. Yes line average is 83. But all of the time is distributed at the beginning of the month. We also have a provision in our contract that you can drop to 40 hours a month if you want.

So think about it. If the time is split at the beginning of the month and the ave is 83. How does someone get from 83 to 99? where does the time come from?

Someone has to put it in open time in order for someone else to pick it up. If we all flew our lines as published or someone dropped and someone picked it up. It is the same amount of time. The company is not going to call anyone back so they can have more reserves.

 

[cleardirect]

I've no wish to see the good folks at AA afflicted with the likes of US's management and host of other issues...after all; I do have a few friends at AA. With the sorry numbers of furloughs/layoffs already announced at American.....well....anyone who can actually apply laughing-boy stickers to the thought of furloughs anywhere is cursed with a situational awareness level that would afford distress to the most marginal of sea sponges....just sayin'......

I think he is laughing at the failed logic of the poster not at the furloughs.

Such deperation on the west side alot of them will be on the street with the upcoming AMR merge. Should have paid attention at Wye River. Oh well.

Why did you have nothing to say to your east buddy luv the 9 that made the statement making light of possible west furloughs?

 

[EastUS1]

I think he is laughing at the failed logic of the poster not at the furloughs.



Why did you have nothing to say to your east buddy luv the 9 that made the statement making light of possible west furloughs?

Furloughs, to me, are simply not cause for laughter. Given the situation at American; none, imho should seem amused by such. I'll leave any assumptions or supposed coloration via "failed logic" to those who believe otherwise.

I don't perceive 9's post as "making light" of anything.... but more of an acidic observation that, just perhaps, the true genius of the west position has yet to be fully evaluated by the process of time and events. For years now, it's been some loudly shouted variation of "St Nic is coming to town!"...."umm...any day/week/month/well...any year now!" To blindly assume that future projections, which necessarily and magically spare your side from the slightest harm, are equally "accurate" seems equally foolhardy. What's your point?

PS: Yes, yes...Of course I do realize that all you'll ever need do, so as to perfectly protect your group's interests against any/all evils that might head west during any multi-billiion $ transaction, is to simply sue everyone, within which legal expenses are of no concern, the very finest teams will drop everything to immediately afford you the force you would require for a guaranteed and of course, instant success, thusly; completely thwarting those entities with said billions $ at stake ......sigh!

 

[Move2CLT]

Furloughs, to me, are simply not cause for laughter. Given the situation at American; none, imho should seem amused by such. I'll leave any assumptions or supposed coloration via "failed logic" to those who believe otherwise.

I don't perceive 9's post as "making light" of anything.... but more of an observation that, just perhaps, the true genius of the west position has yet to be fully evaluated by the process of time and events. For years now, it's been some loudly shouted variation of "St Nic is coming to town!"...."umm...any day/week/month/well...any year now!" To blindly assume that future projections, which necessarily and magically spare your side from the slightest harm, are equally "accurate" seems equally foolhardy. What's your point?

Plenty of harm over here.

The issue here with you guys is the fact that you didn't jump over us and reclaim seats lost long ago at a now defunct carrier.

The fact you couldn't rebuild your careers at our expense is why you're so pissed.

 

[PullUp]

You are wrong. Yes line average is 83. But all of the time is distributed at the beginning of the month. We also have a provision in our contract that you can drop to 40 hours a month if you want.

So think about it. If the time is split at the beginning of the month and the ave is 83. How does someone get from 83 to 99? where does the time come from?

Someone has to put it in open time in order for someone else to pick it up. If we all flew our lines as published or someone dropped and someone picked it up. It is the same amount of time. The company is not going to call anyone back so they can have more reserves.

Ahem. If nobody flew more than 83, would there be enough reserves, given the normal drops during the month?
If the answer is no, then you are keeping a coworker on the street by picking up open time.
The concept is simple, and cannot be rationalized.
Shame.

 

[Zone5]

You are wrong. Yes line average is 83. But all of the time is distributed at the beginning of the month. We also have a provision in our contract that you can drop to 40 hours a month if you want.

So think about it. If the time is split at the beginning of the month and the ave is 83. How does someone get from 83 to 99? where does the time come from?

Someone has to put it in open time in order for someone else to pick it up. If we all flew our lines as published or someone dropped and someone picked it up. It is the same amount of time. The company is not going to call anyone back so they can have more reserves.

OK, suffice to say that the West PBS sounds considerably less flexible than the East bid sheet. For all intents and purposes then, you have little ability to adjust your schedule so as to fly an average of 83 hours a month. Is that what you are saying? If so, I'll take our bid sheet over your PBS.

Assuming your Reserve manning formula and the number of pilots it needs to maintain schedule is not currently over staffed, then yes, the company would need to recall furloughees if "some" block holders weren't overflying the average block by 15-20 hours a month.

I think that's great that the West can drop to 40 hours a month! It wouldn't take to many pilots doing just that, to force the company to bring back some furloughed pilots. Talk about putting your money where your mouth is!


seajay

 

[aquagreen73s]

You guys aren't reading what Clear is saying.

Before the lines are actually built, PBS allots about 85 credit hours per month to each line, divides the total hours to be flown by about 85, and figures out exactly how many lineholders will be created. Thatusually works out to being about 79-82 hard hours in a calendar month. PBS allows us to select when we want to fly, where we want to fly, and even with whom we want to fly with. Once you get your line, then you can trade with other pilots, either up or down.

Me, I asked for and received four four day trips and got a fifth carry-in tacked on starting tomorrow. Every trip has a 32 hour layover at home. Plus I had a carry-in from last month. Result: Total credits of 92 hours with 5 nights spent away from home.

The point is, there is a fixed amount of flying divided up by PBS among X number of line average. Based on seniority, PBS starts at the top and constructs lines from the total amount of flying. You can go above that line average by asking PBS to award credit time, or you can go below it. If senior guys want to pad their lines with extra time, PBS will accommodate - at the expense of the junior line holders who might only then be built to 78 hours. Or, if all the senior pilots bid for min time, then PBS will have to award greater amounts of flying to the bottom side of the list. Once you get your line, you're free to chop trips and put up for trade to other pilots. If there's no takers, then you're stuck with the trip. But, it's amazing what the time whores will pick up. All I can say is, wow. Getting rid of trips is no problem. I've had complete junk disappear within a minute of posting it on the trade board.

 

[73320]

OK, suffice to say that the West PBS sounds considerably less flexible than the East bid sheet. For all intents and purposes then, you have little ability to adjust your schedule so as to fly an average of 83 hours a month. Is that what you are saying? If so, I'll take our bid sheet over your PBS.

Assuming your Reserve manning formula and the number of pilots it needs to maintain schedule is not currently over staffed, then yes, the company would need to recall furloughees if "some" block holders weren't overflying the average block by 15-20 hours a month.

I think that's great that the West can drop to 40 hours a month! It wouldn't take to many pilots doing just that, to force the company to bring back some furloughed pilots. Talk about putting your money where your mouth is!


seajay

The west can only drop to 40 under two scenarios. The first is positive staffing on the days you want to drop. That has a limit before it goes negative and will limit the amount that can be dropped. The second way to drop to 40 is through the pilot to pilot trade board where line holders can take your trips. A small % will be able to drop to 40 under any scenario. There is no way to flood the market with open flying in order to recall pilots. The sad FACT of the matter is that these pilots are furloughed because the flying they were hired to do (LAS) no longer exists. Another sad FACT of the matter is that rather than accept this as factual reality it is much more fun to take a page from the East playbook and blame other pilots for the plight of the furloughs. In this regard it seems to be an all campus co-op delusional diatribe. Carry on gents!