US Pilots Labor Discussion

[BoeingBoy]

Being found guilty of a DFR violation means an unlawful action has taken place. So if USAPA manages to get a contract ratified with their preferred DOH and C&R's and is then found guilty of DFR , an unlawful act has occurred. East pilots who currently believe that USAPA was issuing a "lawful order" would be wrong no matter how much they wanted to be right.

While some instances of lawful vs unlawful can be clear - USAPA would be performing an illegal act if it hired hit men to go after West pilots, for example - most of the time the decision of what's lawful and unlawful is a shade of gray with opinion playing a large part. East pilots in general want a DOH with C&R's to be legal so have the opinion that it is legal. Eventually the judiciary will decide and one side or the other's opinion will be determined to be wrong.

Jim

 

[Black Swan]

Being found guilty of a DFR violation means an unlawful action has taken place. So if USAPA manages to get a contract ratified with their preferred DOH and C&R's and is then found guilty of DFR , an unlawful act has occurred. East pilots who currently believe that USAPA was issuing a "lawful order" would be wrong no matter how much they wanted to be right.

While some instances of lawful vs unlawful can be clear - USAPA would be performing an illegal act if it hired hit men to go after West pilots, for example - most of the time the decision of what's lawful and unlawful is a shade of gray with opinion playing a large part. East pilots in general want a DOH with C&R's to be legal so have the opinion that it is legal. Eventually the judiciary will decide and one side or the other's opinion will be determined to be wrong.

Jim

No, a DFR is not an unlawful action. There are no civil statuates on the books that cover this. There are, however, civil penalties that can be brought to bear for not following a contract, using contractual law. A violation of same is not an unlawful action, and has no connotation or penalty of an unlawful action in a court unless civil statuate was violated.

 

[AWA320]

EastUS??? Hello there! You've been found

The name changes but the stupidity of the message stays the same! This move that a few of them have made is one of trying to make the other side think they are greater in number than they are. Sam sum is Nos and everyone knows it and the beat goes on. Deceit is something that comes natural to the east but it always backfires. Cant be yourself huh kids so your change your holloween masks and still cant hide. 😉

AWA320 aka AWA320

 

[AWA320]

You know, for as much as I can't stand you and have no interest in trying to argue with the ignorant; at least you stick together in what you perceive, as do we, as a fight for your lives. As far as comparing USAPA followers to Hitler followers, you are way off base and again, not interested in the argument. Germany had some great leaders and great soldiers. Just because Hitler was psychotic did not give his soldiers reason to betray one another. Those that did deserved to be fragged. If you don't like the leadership, you vote them out. That's called Democracy. Betrayal is called cowardice.

V

In reading your defense of the German officers I cant help but think that you really have a screw loose or something. When you belong to a group that commits a crime it matters not who the leader was as ALL GO TO PRISON! Its called accessory, maybe you've heard of it? There were no "great german leaders" because if there had been, one of the horrific crimes against humanity would have never taken place. Anyone who just blindly follows is not a great leader but is the true definition of a coward...

AWA320

 

[AWA320]

Not this either. Your case will be deep sixed, again......

And this gets you to your end game how???????????????????

AWA320

 

[BoeingBoy]

No, a DFR is not an unlawful action.

USAPA should be able to do whatever they want if that's the case - staple the West pilots if that's the desire. Yet I don't think they can get away with that since Congress passed and has amended the RLA.

Jim

 

[Black Swan]

USAPA should be able to do whatever they want if that's the case - staple the West pilots if that's the desire. Yet I don't think they can get away with that since Congress passed and has amended the RLA.

Jim

Nobody said they could do what they want as you now stretch the truth. I said they are subject to penalties of a DFR in a contractual law context. Entirely different than CIVIL law.

 

[AWA320]

As I've said before when the East was crowing about the leverage gained from the change of control in the contract, this was merely corporate maneuvering to avoid that CoC language. Why people can't just accept that the merger undoubtedly saved US and possibly HP and move on is a mystery.

Jim

Because its so much easier to live a lie than the truth!!!

AWA320

 

[pit_needs_help]

Because its so much easier to live a lie than the truth!!!

AWA320

I think it is harder to live a lie. I keep forgetting who I lied to and what I said.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Nobody said they could do what they want as you now stretch the truth. I said they are subject to penalties of a DFR in a contractual law context. Entirely different than CIVIL law.

So now it's what type of law covers a DFR violation. What happened to not being unlawful??? You say toe-may-toe and I say toe-motto....

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

Nobody said they could do what they want as you now stretch the truth. I said they are subject to penalties of a DFR in a contractual law context. Entirely different than CIVIL law.

But you don't think that disregarding arbitration. Inventing your own seniority list and false C&R created by one group to advance another group would not be a DFR? If not please define what you think a DFR is?

As judge Bybee asked. Could you place all of the women junior to all of the men? DFR? Could you place all of the redhead senior to everyone else? DFR? Could you pay pilots different rates depending on base but not equipment? DFR? Could you place 85% of one group junior to furloughed pilots? DFR?

 

[Bear96]

No, a DFR is not an unlawful action.

Wait - so a union can lawfully breach its DFR?

There are no civil statuates on the books that cover this. There are, however, civil penalties that can be brought to bear for not following a contract, using contractual law. A violation of same is not an unlawful action, and has no connotation or penalty of an unlawful action in a court unless civil statuate was violated.

You are twisting yourself into a pretzel with this "logic."

Ever hear of common law? (If not, Google it.) The concepts of negligence and breach of contract in most of their forms are but two examples of common law that have not been codified into statutes in most states. Therefore you cannot sue me for either? (Or is a lawsuit and/or damages not a "connotation or penalty of an unlawful action" in your world?)

 

[Bear96]

I said they are subject to penalties of a DFR in a contractual law context. Entirely different than CIVIL law.

Wait again. Contract law =/= "civil" law in the U.S.?

Can you please define "civil law" how you are using it here?

 

[traderjake]

Don't reply to me again. You have no credibility. Just don't let on to the people you fly with that you are a smiling, good guy but will stab them in the back at the first opportunity and will 'likely' scab if given the chance. If they knew you, you would be flying solo.
V

Everyone I fly with knows what I think.

 

[pitchlow]

Just as in the military during war, the individual has an opinion of whether an order is unlawful while the "judiciary" makes the official determination after the fact. You "think" that USAPA has done and will do nothing illegal but that's only your opinion based on it attempting to produce a result you desire.

Jim

We would all do well to fight off "Confirmation bias". That goes for everybody, including those who would point out this most Human of afflictions, believing they are exempt. Don't we all want to produce a favorable result? BB, you have built a rather impressive Ivory Tower in retirement. When I resign from Greyhound I will fix my garage.