US Pilots Labor Discussion

[N924PS]

Okay, I will take your word for it. Actually, there are some C&Rs that would allow phx captains to hold captain in the east. It's just hard for me to see a PSA pilot with that POV after all the years you sat in the east seat.

PI- It was a M-E-R-G-E-R, just like USAirways/America West.

 

[Pi brat]

It was bottom B737 on both coasts FYI.

You are right, we did get a nice pay raise because ALPA insisted on pay parity.

Under the same scenarion, if PHX were to close, under a DOH list, most West Captains couldn't hold the same seat back East. Many being junior to pilots that were unemployed prior to the merger.

PI-This isn't about commuting. It's about whats fair and equitable to BOTH sides, and apparently the courts will be the final arbiter.

If you and your PSA friends had been merged with a Nic logic, how do you think you would have come out over the years?

 

[luvthe9]

Sorry, but that idea would never float without a national seniority list. Which you have pointed out does not exist. If it did, then a 5 year pilot would make "x" $, a 10 year pilot "y" and so on, regardless of airline, seat, fleet, etc. It would also require standardized work rules and contracts throughout the industry. This is simply fantasy land in the world we live in.

I sure you did , but did you know you guys are the AWA to CAL (just not wanted). I had know idea how they despised you guys till I had a few CAL jumpseaters.

 

[Pi brat]

PI- It was a M-E-R-G-E-R, just like USAirways/America West.

You don't have to spell it out in all caps for me. I make spelling mistakes, but usually find and correct them.

What does that have to do with what I've said?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Okay, I will take your word for it. Actually, there are some C&Rs that would allow phx captains to hold captain in the east.

Aside form those who would have the DOH to hold a captain job back east (not a C&R BTW), I don't recall that so refresh my memory. Maybe USAPA has changed/added some C&R's since the original DOH list was presented...

Jim

 

[N924PS]

If you and your PSA friends had been merged with a Nic logic, how do you think you would have come out over the years?

Great question!

If Nicolau had applied similar ratios by equipment, I think I would be within 10% of where I have been since 4-9-88.

 

[BoeingBoy]

What does that have to do with what I've said?

"All those years you sat in an east seat." Sounds like you feel that those were still "east" seats even after the merger. They weren't - they were US seats, nether "east" nor "west". That's what is merger is.

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

Great question!

If Nicolau had applied similar ratios by equipment, I think I would be within 10% of where I have been since 4-9-88.

10% can be a big difference with an airline that has so few widebodies. Jim can probably tell us is you are right, but there were a lot of young captains at PI that were put junior to you by DOH. I know they weren't too happy about that.

There have been a lot of hypocrisy charges thrown around on here. I think PS pilots benefited pretty well from DOH, and now some of them want to give the seats they have been occupying on the east to west pilots so they can get to PHX as soon as possible. You may not be one of them, but when I hear it from them it sounds like the height of hypocrisy to me.

 

[Pi brat]

"All those years you sat in an east seat." Sounds like you feel that those were still "east" seats even after the merger. They weren't - they were US seats, nether "east" nor "west". That's what is merger is.

Jim

Really professor? What else is a merger? What else do I believe?

Actually for all those years that I pulled gear for PS pilots I enjoyed most of them, I realized their bases were taken away, and most importantly.......................THEY WERE HIRED BEFORE I WAS! I'd just like to have the seat when they leave, to get off reserve, and maybe have a summer vacation. After 24 years of waiting my turn I don't think that it is to much to ask that those on the west wait their turn for the east seats.

So how did you feel when the PS pilots came in in front of you because of DOH, since you are a relative position guy.

 

[Pi brat]

Aside form those who would have the DOH to hold a captain job back east (not a C&R BTW), I don't recall that so refresh my memory. Maybe USAPA has changed/added some C&R's since the original DOH list was presented...

Jim

Let me see if I can find it. I thought the same as you, but a friend of mine that really keeps up with these things told me I was wrong.


DATE OF HIRE CONDITIONS AND RESTRICTIONS

US Airways Seniority Integration

Goals

1. A fair and equitable seniority integration
2. Recognition that DOH seniority is a cornerstone in the foundation of our union
3. Conditions and restrictions principally designed to protect the pre-merger career expectations of the America West

List Construction

The US Airways Integrated Pilot System Seniority List was created from the 1 Jan 2007 certified lists from the two premerger airlines. All pilots hired subsequently have been added in DOH order. There has been no reordering of previous lists. It is our intent that the integrated list with its associated Conditions and Restrictions shall become effective upon contract signing.

West Provisions

We have designated the positions that existed in LAS and PHX as of 1 Jun 2008, prior to the system reductions, as West protected positions. This has the effect of capturing a higher number of positions than actually exist currently. These protected positions are preserved for West pilot bidding and displaced West pilots have recapture rights back to LAS or PHX throughout the term of the Conditions and Restrictions with few exceptions. West protected positions are eliminated if voluntarily vacated. If the number of pilot positions in LAS and PHX increases above the initial protected positions count, any additional new Captain vacancies in LAS and PHX shall be available to East and West pilots on a 1 for 1 basis. The 1 for 1 ratio allows West pilots to capture more upgrades than would be available with an actual West-to-East ratio. Additionally, West attrition is reserved for West pilots.

System-wide DOH bidding is available to West pilots at any time following the contract ratification date and implementation of the Conditions and Restrictions.

West pilots shall be entitled to one-third of the Captain and one-third of the First Officer positions on up to 25 EMB190 aircraft, on a vacancy basis only.

In the event that EMB190 flying replaces current flying in LAS or PHX, EMB190 positions in LAS or PHX will be available to be included in the protected positions. This permits West pilots to remain protected in base, rather than possibly being bumped involuntarily out of base.

East Provisions

East attrition has been preserved for East pilots.

East pilots may bid positions in LAS and PHX as West pilots bid east, and as LAS and PHX flying expands above the 1 June 2008 levels. The addition of a different category of aircraft would be open to a system-wide bid.

Reduction of Flying

Reductions of Captain positions system-wide are shared East and West on a ratio basis. The ratios are established upon contract signing and are aircraft and pay group specific; the ratios will be based on the actual staffing levels that exist at that time. For example, if at contract signing the B-737 ratio is 10 East Captains for every 6 West Captains, then any B-737 Captain position reductions would be allocated using that ratio. The ratios will be readjusted 12 months following contract signing to account for staffing realignment due to work rule changes.

Catastrophic Reduction Clause

In the event of a catastrophic reduction in force of 25% or more of the pilot position count which existed on 1 June 2008, the integrated system seniority list shall govern in all seniority-related matters.

Duration

The Duration of the Conditions and Restrictions shall be 10 years.

 

[AvgJoe]

Sorry, but that idea would never float without a national seniority list. Which you have pointed out does not exist. If it did, then a 5 year pilot would make "x" $, a 10 year pilot "y" and so on, regardless of airline, seat, fleet, etc. It would also require standardized work rules and contracts throughout the industry. This is simply fantasy land in the world we live in.

Be careful what you wish for. If the Nic is forced on the east look for a DOH based pay scale coming with the TA.

 

[LSS]

Two questions:

What was your relative seniority on the 2005 USAirways (snapshot) list?

What was your relative seniority on the Nicolau list?

It's not OK for you to "lose" 300 numbers, but it's perfectly acceptable for the Number 1 Cactus pilot to become #701 on your precious DOH list.

That's just wrong.

PS Where did I say it was perfectly acceptable for the Number 1 Westie to become 701... I've never stated straight DOH would be acceptable... so don't put words in my mouth... What I do believe is there was a better way to merge our two groups... and weighting "career expectations" so heavily is one of the huge problems... fortunes rise and fall in this industry and you know it!

 

[Black Swan]

Two questions:

What was your relative seniority on the 2005 USAirways (snapshot) list?

What was your relative seniority on the Nicolau list?

It's not OK for you to "lose" 300 numbers, but it's perfectly acceptable for the Number 1 Cactus pilot to become #701 on your precious DOH list.

That's just wrong.

What was the largest and highest paying equipment that west #1 pilot was capable of bidding? Airbus 320. What was the highest paying equipment the number 300 pilot on the east capable of bidding? Answer Airbus 330. You cannot even start to compare. Number 701 on the East list can hold the 76I. The Number one west pilot? Airbus 320. That is not just wrong. It is totally right.

 

[LSS]

Be careful what you wish for. If the Nic is forced on the east look for a DOH based pay scale coming with the TA.

Hey Joe...

I was just thinking the same thing... let them have their precious NIC... but pay is based on DOH... Viola... problem solved!

 

[mikey60]

Here's a question for you guys that know it all, and Jim I'm interested in your take since you know some of the guys I'm talking about. About the top 1/4 to 1/3 of the east seniority list is not really affected by the Nic award. Why are they not joining forces with the west and beating on the USAPA door everyday in CLT to force them into giving in on the Nic award? We've heard from several east posters on here that are in thouse positions and that have said why they feel that way, but I'm interested in the other side telling me why they think nobody rises up.

PRINCIPAL! At this point the money is second. The line is in the sand. This is the opinion of the 10-15 pilots in the top100 that I've talked to.