US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Black Swan]

Apples and Oranges.....

SPANK!!!!!

Metro, this is a great deal for the east. You are going to be locked up for years with no merger. Possibly 5-10. No raises at all. At least the east gets 3% each yr. A total Nic kill. Meanwhile, the upgrades and widebodies just keep getting staffed and the raises go on and on. This is fantastic. The way things are going, we will NEVER merge this abortion, and that is the objective! If that is a spanking, sign me up!

 

[Black Swan]

A320 Driver,

Your first post above sounds similar to what some have said here for at least a couple of years now. Obviously USAPA wanted nothing to do with it. What makes you think the east would want it now? (Serious question) I have said since day one, why not put a decent contract with a few tweaks to protect attrition and widebody flying, but was bashed from every east direction for uttering such a suggestion. Plus many see the Nic as already protecting your attrition by giving the east 2/3 of the upgrades, which is about what you brought to the table considering pilots on SL and those who would retire from furlough or a junior right seat position.

The fact that you are getting negative comments from east posters shows that this thing is being driven by the junior core of pilots who were furloughed for a good portion of their careers, yet decided to tough it out hoping to one day recover what they have lost.

As for soul searching, IMO that is exactly what a lot of east pilots are now doing in the face of this recent development, along with Cleary's unilateral filing of yet another law suit with no oversight whatsoever. Maybe now is a good time for a vote. Maybe it's time for Reform USAPA to "storm CLT" and do exactly what you suggested, while allowing the west to determine what conditions be acceptable without triggering DFRII.

I can't really say that I blame the west for digging in their heals. It is the east who has pounded them for years now, enduring the name calling, and the bullying with Rico suits and such. This latest loss by Seham sheds some more light on the position the courts might take. Combine that with the way you (the east collectively) have treated the west and you've given them little reason to not follow through.

Whatever happens, this is definitely a game changer and might just move the ball down field a bit.

Soul searching? Wow, if you think this concerns any of us, you missed the entire point. This locks up the West pilots for a long, long time. If that is what they want, then they got it. This "turn of events" just put the brakes on for any movement. That means the Nic is not a factor, again. This is the best thing going for the east. You better ask your west friends how long they are willing to stay status quo, because that is just what they got for many years to go. They way they are clamoring for an integration on this board, it is exactly what they did not want. This just put it off for years. And that is just fine with me. How you can say it might move the ball is just ridiculous. It just punted the ball back to the 20.

 

[Freebird]

Metro, this is a great deal for the east. You are going to be locked up for years with no merger. Possibly 5-10. No raises at all. At least the east gets 3% each yr. A total Nic kill. Meanwhile, the upgrades and widebodies just keep getting staffed and the raises go on and on. This is fantastic. The way things are going, we will NEVER merge this abortion, and that is the objective! If that is a spanking, sign me up!

Desperation.

USAPA feels that the egregious nature of these illegal acts has been compounded by important safety grievances that remain unresolved as a result of US Airways' actions.

In a statement to the US Airways pilots, USAPA President Mike Cleary said, "Each of us is painfully aware that remaining mired in bankruptcy-era contracts after six years has created a level of hardship for our families that is unsustainable. The honesty, moral character and integrity that we have applied to our obligations during negotiations (Who are they kidding?) have been met with exactly the opposite from management. They have used every opportunity to stall, delay and attempt to exhaust the resources of our union and our pilot group. It is time for it to stop. We look to the legal system to provide relief and get our negotiations back on the level playing field that the statute requires."

In its complaint, USAPA seeks to enjoin US Airways from unilaterally abrogating and altering the relevant collective bargaining agreements pending completion of the RLA's major dispute resolution procedure. USAPA requested that the District Court issue a preliminary injunction prohibiting US Airways from engaging in this misconduct.

In his letter to the pilots, President Cleary went on to state, "I have no doubt that Management will respond in a punitive fashion to this demand for statutory compliance by taking hostages with the discipline mechanisms that are at their disposal. I can promise you that when they do, your union will respond swiftly and aggressively to defend and protect your jobs and your rights."

Thats right PAWNS, keep kissing the ring and Drinking the Kool-Aid, like you master directs you to do.

USAPA = Losing

 

[Freebird]

Soul searching? Wow, if you think this concerns any of us, you missed the entire point. This locks up the West pilots for a long, long time. If that is what they want, then they got it. This "turn of events" just put the brakes on for any movement. That means the Nic is not a factor, again. This is the best thing going for the east. You better ask your west friends how long they are willing to stay status quo, because that is just what they got for many years to go. They way they are clamoring for an integration on this board, it is exactly what they did not want. This just put it off for years. And that is just fine with me.

Says the puppet...


USAPA = Live Puppet show daily.

 

[Black Swan]

Desperation.

USAPA feels that the egregious nature of these illegal acts has been compounded by important safety grievances that remain unresolved as a result of US Airways' actions.

In a statement to the US Airways pilots, USAPA President Mike Cleary said, "Each of us is painfully aware that remaining mired in bankruptcy-era contracts after six years has created a level of hardship for our families that is unsustainable. The honesty, moral character and integrity that we have applied to our obligations during negotiations (Who are they kidding?) have been met with exactly the opposite from management. They have used every opportunity to stall, delay and attempt to exhaust the resources of our union and our pilot group. It is time for it to stop. We look to the legal system to provide relief and get our negotiations back on the level playing field that the statute requires."

In its complaint, USAPA seeks to enjoin US Airways from unilaterally abrogating and altering the relevant collective bargaining agreements pending completion of the RLA's major dispute resolution procedure. USAPA requested that the District Court issue a preliminary injunction prohibiting US Airways from engaging in this misconduct.

In his letter to the pilots, President Cleary went on to state, "I have no doubt that Management will respond in a punitive fashion to this demand for statutory compliance by taking hostages with the discipline mechanisms that are at their disposal. I can promise you that when they do, your union will respond swiftly and aggressively to defend and protect your jobs and your rights."

Thats right PAWNS, keep kissing the ring and Drinking the Kool-Aid, like you master directs you to do.

USAPA = Losing

Everyone east is just going to do what they want, and if they need some extra cash, take the 76 or 330 as the openings arise. So easy, even a caveman can do it!

 

[Barrister]

Metro, this is a great deal for the east. You are going to be locked up for years with no merger. Possibly 5-10. No raises at all. At least the east gets 3% each yr. A total Nic kill. Meanwhile, the upgrades and widebodies just keep getting staffed and the raises go on and on. This is fantastic. The way things are going, we will NEVER merge this abortion, and that is the objective! If that is a spanking, sign me up!

Hey metro 2 things you always forget that are very important........

1. There has been a finding of fact that USAPA HAS NOT delayed a contract AND

2. A CBA will not be ratified with the NIC........BACK TO THE 9TH BOYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If Silver finds that the NIC has to be used that directly puts it right back to the 9th!!!!

You dudes ever buy that rocking chair yet.......attrition coming to us in 18 months!!!

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[nic4us]

Hey PI won't this thing wind up back in front of the 9th if Silver says
you gotta use NIC..?????

NICDOA
NPJB

I am sure it will end up at the 9th, sometime this month. Seeham will be filing away frivolous BS (expensive frivolous BS) in order to get a ruling that Silver is wrong, and that there is a ripeness issue.

The problem is Barrister, contrary to what usapa legal has fed their supporters, is that nowhere in the 9ths ruling on Addington did the 9th say, "usapa does not have to use the Nic". Further, the company was not a part of Addington and the 9ths ruling, so there is nothing that says the company does not have to abided by its contractual obligations (the TA) and collude with usapa in the DFR DOH quest.

The company's DJ says it fears one of two outcomes.

1. Use a non-Nic and get sued by the West. With a jury verdict already determining that to be a DFR, and the 9th circuit failing to address merits.

2. Insist on the Nic, and face a work stoppage from usapa.


Silver will not tell the company they have to use the Nic. Silver will tell the company, of those two options, you decide which you can manage better.

It would seem to me that the NMB mediator would never release over insistance on using a final and binding arbitrated award, and if the job action the company fears is an illegal one, well they already have the means for redress. However, it is much more certain that the West will sue and likely win for the use of a non-Nic list.

So, it won't be Silver saying you got to use the Nic, it will be the West pilots. BTW, the 9th already told usapa this in their "pain of unquestionably ripe" quote.

 

[sumadarson]

All because you lack the Integrity to honor your agreements.

I'd be pissed if I were an 25 year East F/O working under LOA93 for the past several years, drinking the USAPA Kool-Aid, and having nothing to show for it. Wasted time. Lost Income. The USAPA way.


USAPA = The anti-democracy

Speaking of honor and integrity, what is going on with the VP of Usiarways Kirby, accusations of having behaviour problems on flights?

 

[Freebird]

Speaking of honor and integrity, what is going on with the VP of Usiarways Kirby, accusations of having behaviour problems on flights?

Deflection.

You have no valid point, so you redirect and begin your mudslinging posts. Will it stick? Where is the industry leading or industry average or industry whatever that USAPA is getting the pilots it represents? USAPA has no plan. Due to their incompetence and impotence they will continue to fail this group. How much are you losing each day?

USAPA = Neutered and Spade.

 

[Freebird]

Hey metro 2 things you always forget that are very important........

1. There has been a finding of fact that USAPA HAS NOT delayed a contract AND

2. A CBA will not be ratified with the NIC........BACK TO THE 9TH BOYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If Silver finds that the NIC has to be used that directly puts it right back to the 9th!!!!

You dudes ever buy that rocking chair yet.......attrition coming to us in 18 months!!!

NICDOA
NPJB

1. Finding of fact by whom? The same "committee" that said there was no evidence of physical violence in the USAPA HQ?

2. Enjoy LOA93

The 9th Ruled 2/1, which could easily become 1/2.

I bought a lot of things. I see you're excited to make Captain at F/O wages. Your ego must be proud.


USAPA = Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk

 

[Freebird]

Everyone east is just going to do what they want, and if they need some extra cash, take the 76 or 330 as the openings arise. So easy, even a caveman can do it!

Sure you are.


In a statement to the US Airways pilots, USAPA President Mike Cleary said, "Each of us is painfully aware that remaining mired in bankruptcy-era contracts after six years has created a level of hardship for our families that is unsustainable.



USAPA = Unsustainable

 

[sumadarson]

Deflection.

You have no valid point, so you redirect and begin your mudslinging posts. Will it stick? Where is the industry leading or industry average or industry whatever that USAPA is getting the pilots it represents? USAPA has no plan. Due to their incompetence and impotence they will continue to fail this group. How much are you losing each day?

USAPA = Neutered and Spade.

Deflection?

Wait a minute. The former america west pilots flew drugs, crossed picket lines, flew drunk, stole from the company computers the personal information about the east pilots and other crimes, while the former america west management stood by and did nothing.

The former america west ceo and now Usairways ceo has a history of driving drunk and was arrested for the same in the last few years. Now former america west management team member and now VP of Usairways Scott Kirby was disorderly on a flight from PHL to Manchester England.

It is not mudslinging, it is the truth that all the Usairways employees and investors should be concerned about. Try to defend any of these actions. No wonder Usairways is in a tail spin.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

I am sure it will end up at the 9th, sometime this month. Seeham will be filing away frivolous BS (expensive frivolous BS) in order to get a ruling that Silver is wrong, and that there is a ripeness issue.

The problem is Barrister, contrary to what usapa legal has fed their supporters, is that nowhere in the 9ths ruling on Addington did the 9th say, "usapa does not have to use the Nic". Further, the company was not a part of Addington and the 9ths ruling, so there is nothing that says the company does not have to abided by its contractual obligations (the TA) and collude with usapa in the DFR DOH quest.

The company's DJ says it fears one of two outcomes.

1. Use a non-Nic and get sued by the West. With a jury verdict already determining that to be a DFR, and the 9th circuit failing to address merits.

2. Insist on the Nic, and face a work stoppage from usapa.


Silver will not tell the company they have to use the Nic. Silver will tell the company, of those two options, you decide which you can manage better.

It would seem to me that the NMB mediator would never release over insistance on using a final and binding arbitrated award, and if the job action the company fears is an illegal one, well they already have the means for redress. However, it is much more certain that the West will sue and likely win for the use of a non-Nic list.

So, it won't be Silver saying you got to use the Nic, it will be the West pilots. BTW, the 9th already told usapa this in their "pain of unquestionably ripe" quote.

Option 3 The company splits this thing up, sells the WEST, with your contract and the WEST F/A's and has all your frivolous litigation thrown out, NO CONTRACT, NO NIC! MM! A risk thing! You sue USAPA for DFR only to have it tossed, good luck!

 

[luvthe9]

Hey metro 2 things you always forget that are very important........

1. There has been a finding of fact that USAPA HAS NOT delayed a contract AND

2. A CBA will not be ratified with the NIC........BACK TO THE 9TH BOYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If Silver finds that the NIC has to be used that directly puts it right back to the 9th!!!!

You dudes ever buy that rocking chair yet.......attrition coming to us in 18 months!!!

NICDOA
NPJB

I don't get how any west pilot thinks this is a good thing for them. It really isn't going to help anybody but Doug. As far as east pilots? It definitely puts off a contract. But also keeps the wheels spinning forever. This supposed merger is just not going to happen. Probably what Parker secretly wants. Keeps all of his options alive. This definitely puts the process years back.

 

[767jetz]

Soul searching? Wow, if you think this concerns any of us, you missed the entire point. This locks up the West pilots for a long, long time. If that is what they want, then they got it. This "turn of events" just put the brakes on for any movement. That means the Nic is not a factor, again. This is the best thing going for the east. You better ask your west friends how long they are willing to stay status quo, because that is just what they got for many years to go. They way they are clamoring for an integration on this board, it is exactly what they did not want. This just put it off for years. And that is just fine with me. How you can say it might move the ball is just ridiculous. It just punted the ball back to the 20.

First of all, it was A320 Driver that mentioned the soul searching. I was just agreeing with him.

Second, you once again demonstrate little understanding of the law. You don't have to take my word for it. Ask your own legal council or your clueless leader, Cleary. Why do you think USAPA was so afraid of the DJ that they fought so hard and spent all that money for a motion to dismiss? You think that was simply a delay tactic? You really are blind. Only a true USAPA lackey would see this as a win for the east. Your own union knows what the dangers for you are if this case goes forward. Which it finally will. Keep whistling past the grave if it makes you sleep better. DOH is DOA.

And for someone who threw words like SPANKED and SCHOOLED around more than any other poster on this forum, you seem to be awfully blind to those concepts when the shoe is on the other foot.

Lots of bravado by your group since the DJ was filed about the certainty of it being dismissed. Now with your motion to dismissed denied you've all got some crow waiting on the dinner table.