US Pilots Labor Discussion

[ManDachine]

:angry:
I'd like to make a point from the perspective of the customer service group. The games being played among the pilot groups are obvious to us and to the public. Your inane antics are splintering the camaraderie between all employee groups.
We recently had one of your yellow lanyard captains say he "spotted" a few loose panel fasteners on the vertical stabilizer of a 319. Maintenance had to go up in the bucket with a cordless driver to torque a couple fasteners that were no way visible to the naked eye on a walk around. They essentially had to "snug" these fasteners. I’m sure over time one could find this issue on any aircraft in the commercial fleet in this country. This was only a minor incident, yet blatantly a petty stunt.
While there are legitimate maintenance issues that affect the safety of a flight, there is a ground swell of activity by some of our pilots to intentionally disrupt the flow of our operation with frivolous maintenance issues. This activity is a reflection on how you feel about the capacity of our maintenance workers, customer service workers, our dispatchers and most importantly, our customers. They have a choice, they can walk, we can’t.
Your job action is raising hell at the airports. We hear your conversations and watch your actions. Most of our pilots are true professionals and are embarrassed over the actions of the minority. Those who are causing the problems should get a life or get a new job, if you can find one.

Would you nonrev on an airplane that had fastners loose?

 

[Black Swan]

Actually its maintenance who says the plane is safe or not, they are the ones who sign the Airworthy block in the logbook, they are the ones who repair the plane, sign off the job card and logbook, not a pilot.

And who is the FINAL AUTHORITY as far as the acceptance of that sign off? The CAPTAIN. The Captain signs the logbook, which signifies he is satisfied with the maintenance, or writes up the aircraft saying a maintenance issue is to be addressed. The captain accepts the electronically sent flight release, which signifies he/she is satisfied all factors of the flight are acceptable, including the maintenance of the aircraft.

 

[IADair]

I have no dog in this fight, However I can sum this "conflcit" up in one word "SHOCKING". Oh from time to time I look up topics on the net in attempt to gather true facts about a topic, (like lowfat, now just because a label sais low fat does not mean it is low fat, even though everyone may believe it to be true)

So here is the bottom line, everything being equal in todays legal environment, Eventually USAPA will lose, utterly shocking that anyone could think otherwise. Their "union" was formed to skirt an arbitration award.

With that being said, are the old america west guys actually being forced to pay union dues to a union that does not represent them, question?

I find it shocking that someone on here posts "so what I am going to retire, it will not have an impact on me" what utter arrogance. The livelyhood of thousands of people depend on US airways, not just the livelyhood of pilots

Conventional wisdom believes the best way to survive is by merger (true only time will tell?) Parker was visionary with this concept and tried desperately to get a deal done, the us airways pilots are a huge hurdle to overcome to get this done, the latest UNITED/USairways deal had to be structure to circumvent the pilots, it could not be done so Continental got involved, end of ballgame.

USAPA either does not care or does not realize how much damage they are doiing, not just their jobs but thousands of jobs.

You thnk Parker really cares? low wages are better for shareholders, of course he will go through the motions (legally and otherwiise) to prevent liability. USairways management iis going to court to see how to proceed with the contract, think about it, how patheitic is that.

While researching this topic, going through Nic, and reading usapa press releases, well again shocking is all I can say, on May 31 (I believe) usapa put out a press release stating how they were suing usairways to prevent usairways from going to court so that usariways could determine how to proceed with the pilot contract, huh, what are you kiidding me? Anyway usapa lost this motion (or whatever you call it) but you never saw a press release about that!!!!

Yep sometimes just because a container sais low fat does not mean it is low fat in fact it may be filled with excrement.

How can a Eastcoast guy look his children, friends, wife in the eye and say yep I renigged on my word, on binding arbitration, I just dont get it.

All the WEst and the EAST have got to get together here, this has got to stop, the longterm future depends on it, Enough

 

[luvthe9]

I have no dog in this fight, However I can sum this "conflcit" up in one word "SHOCKING". Oh from time to time I look up topics on the net in attempt to gather true facts about a topic, (like lowfat, now just because a label sais low fat does not mean it is low fat, even though everyone may believe it to be true)

So here is the bottom line, everything being equal in todays legal environment, Eventually USAPA will lose, utterly shocking that anyone could think otherwise. Their "union" was formed to skirt an arbitration award.

With that being said, are the old america west guys actually being forced to pay union dues to a union that does not represent them, question?

I find it shocking that someone on here posts "so what I am going to retire, it will not have an impact on me" what utter arrogance. The livelyhood of thousands of people depend on US airways, not just the livelyhood of pilots

Conventional wisdom believes the best way to survive is by merger (true only time will tell?) Parker was visionary with this concept and tried desperately to get a deal done, the us airways pilots are a huge hurdle to overcome to get this done, the latest UNITED/USairways deal had to be structure to circumvent the pilots, it could not be done so Continental got involved, end of ballgame.

USAPA either does not care or does not realize how much damage they are doiing, not just their jobs but thousands of jobs.

You thnk Parker really cares? low wages are better for shareholders, of course he will go through the motions (legally and otherwiise) to prevent liability. USairways management iis going to court to see how to proceed with the contract, think about it, how patheitic is that.

While researching this topic, going through Nic, and reading usapa press releases, well again shocking is all I can say, on May 31 (I believe) usapa put out a press release stating how they were suing usairways to prevent usairways from going to court so that usariways could determine how to proceed with the pilot contract, huh, what are you kiidding me? Anyway usapa lost this motion (or whatever you call it) but you never saw a press release about that!!!!

Yep sometimes just because a container sais low fat does not mean it is low fat in fact it may be filled with excrement.

How can a Eastcoast guy look his children, friends, wife in the eye and say yep I renigged on my word, on binding arbitration, I just dont get it.

All the WEst and the EAST have got to get together here, this has got to stop, the longterm future depends on it, Enough

 

[luvthe9]

I have no dog in this fight, However I can sum this "conflcit" up in one word "SHOCKING". Oh from time to time I look up topics on the net in attempt to gather true facts about a topic, (like lowfat, now just because a label sais low fat does not mean it is low fat, even though everyone may believe it to be true)

So here is the bottom line, everything being equal in todays legal environment, Eventually USAPA will lose, utterly shocking that anyone could think otherwise. Their "union" was formed to skirt an arbitration award.

With that being said, are the old america west guys actually being forced to pay union dues to a union that does not represent them, question?

I find it shocking that someone on here posts "so what I am going to retire, it will not have an impact on me" what utter arrogance. The livelyhood of thousands of people depend on US airways, not just the livelyhood of pilots

Conventional wisdom believes the best way to survive is by merger (true only time will tell?) Parker was visionary with this concept and tried desperately to get a deal done, the us airways pilots are a huge hurdle to overcome to get this done, the latest UNITED/USairways deal had to be structure to circumvent the pilots, it could not be done so Continental got involved, end of ballgame.

USAPA either does not care or does not realize how much damage they are doiing, not just their jobs but thousands of jobs.

You thnk Parker really cares? low wages are better for shareholders, of course he will go through the motions (legally and otherwiise) to prevent liability. USairways management iis going to court to see how to proceed with the contract, think about it, how patheitic is that.

While researching this topic, going through Nic, and reading usapa press releases, well again shocking is all I can say, on May 31 (I believe) usapa put out a press release stating how they were suing usairways to prevent usairways from going to court so that usariways could determine how to proceed with the pilot contract, huh, what are you kiidding me? Anyway usapa lost this motion (or whatever you call it) but you never saw a press release about that!!!!

Yep sometimes just because a container sais low fat does not mean it is low fat in fact it may be filled with excrement.

How can a Eastcoast guy look his children, friends, wife in the eye and say yep I renigged on my word, on binding arbitration, I just dont get it.

All the WEst and the EAST have got to get together here, this has got to stop, the longterm future depends on it, Enough

Obviously a west CSR with a dog in the fight. Like the one who staged an attack in PHX against an east captain. Fortunately, there were witnesses to the fraud. Amazing, she was married to a west capt. Talk about fraud. She is now in hot water. Who cares what Parker thinks? He is the laughing stock of the industry. Actually had to serve jail time while CEO, for a DUI. What a low life. At least the east pilots care enough about the safety of their customers that they actually hold the line where others are willing to cross it for an on time departure solely for their own bonuses. Remember, SAFETY FIRST. A SAFE FLIGHT, IS NO ACCIDENT!

 

[Black Swan]

I have no dog in this fight, However I can sum this "conflcit" up in one word "SHOCKING". Oh from time to time I look up topics on the net in attempt to gather true facts about a topic, (like lowfat, now just because a label sais low fat does not mean it is low fat, even though everyone may believe it to be true)

So here is the bottom line, everything being equal in todays legal environment, Eventually USAPA will lose, utterly shocking that anyone could think otherwise. Their "union" was formed to skirt an arbitration award.

With that being said, are the old america west guys actually being forced to pay union dues to a union that does not represent them, question?

I find it shocking that someone on here posts "so what I am going to retire, it will not have an impact on me" what utter arrogance. The livelyhood of thousands of people depend on US airways, not just the livelyhood of pilots

Conventional wisdom believes the best way to survive is by merger (true only time will tell?) Parker was visionary with this concept and tried desperately to get a deal done, the us airways pilots are a huge hurdle to overcome to get this done, the latest UNITED/USairways deal had to be structure to circumvent the pilots, it could not be done so Continental got involved, end of ballgame.

USAPA either does not care or does not realize how much damage they are doiing, not just their jobs but thousands of jobs.

You thnk Parker really cares? low wages are better for shareholders, of course he will go through the motions (legally and otherwiise) to prevent liability. USairways management iis going to court to see how to proceed with the contract, think about it, how patheitic is that.

While researching this topic, going through Nic, and reading usapa press releases, well again shocking is all I can say, on May 31 (I believe) usapa put out a press release stating how they were suing usairways to prevent usairways from going to court so that usariways could determine how to proceed with the pilot contract, huh, what are you kiidding me? Anyway usapa lost this motion (or whatever you call it) but you never saw a press release about that!!!!

Yep sometimes just because a container sais low fat does not mean it is low fat in fact it may be filled with excrement.

How can a Eastcoast guy look his children, friends, wife in the eye and say yep I renigged on my word, on binding arbitration, I just dont get it.

All the WEst and the EAST have got to get together here, this has got to stop, the longterm future depends on it, Enough

This is right out of the Jerry Glass playbook. Another employee group finds it "outrageous" that you are simply doing your job, as safely as possible. No mind that they have absolutely no idea what your job entails, yet are experts not only in your job specifics, but also are extremely adept at your labor relations issues as well. And, they can't mind their own business unless it entails their job, then it is all about THEM. I say BUTT OUT. You have no idea what you are talking about. If you want to have some input in flight safety, then go out and get your ATP, and we will see you back in about 15 years or so. Have a nice day. 😀

 

[IADair]

Obviously a west CSR with a dog in the fight. Like the one who staged an attack in PHX against an east captain. Fortunately, there were witnesses to the fraud. Amazing, she was married to a west capt. Talk about fraud. She is now in hot water. Who cares what Parker thinks? He is the laughing stock of the industry. Actually had to serve jail time while CEO, for a DUI. What a low life. At least the east pilots care enough about the safety of their customers that they actually hold the line where others are willing to cross it for an on time departure solely for their own bonuses. Remember, SAFETY FIRST. A SAFE FLIGHT, IS NO ACCIDENT!

Yep that did not take long, sometimes I will post information and facts in political forums (boom does not take long for someone state emphatically that I am a republican or a democrat based on my respone against their postioin or party).

I have no dog here, but time will show (unless us air goes bankrupt first). I am not going to argue about what I know to be false, but if you are so sure I work for america west, if you have so much conviction, well just goes to show you how horriblly wrong you are, just like you are wrong about the final outcome here, You guys just dont get it, Your the equivalent of religious fanatics, there is no use to try to reason with you.

Mediation needs to be brought in, professionals need to get both sides talking, this had got to stop

 

[Black Swan]

Yep that did not take long, sometimes I will post information and facts in political forums (boom does not take long for someone state emphatically that I am a republican or a democrat based on my respone against their postioin or party).

I have no dog here, but time will show (unless us air goes bankrupt first). I am not going to argue about what I know to be false, but if you are so sure I work for america west, if you have so much conviction, well just goes to show you how horriblly wrong you are, just like you are wrong about the final outcome here, You guys just dont get it, Your the equivalent of religious fanatics, there is no use to try to reason with you.

Mediation needs to be brought in, professionals need to get both sides talking, this had got to stop

You guys shut the airline down when you pulled your shares issues. Nobody said a thing about that job action. Amazing, it says SAFETY FIRST all over the airline, and then when someone actually runs a safe operation, as asked, it is a major issue. If you don't like what is going on, call Parker and have him remove the SAFETY FIRST messages on the flight boards, floor mats, posters, and FIL s we get all the time, as well as take down the Safety Dept.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Actually its maintenance who says the plane is safe or not, they are the ones who sign the Airworthy block in the logbook, they are the ones who repair the plane, sign off the job card and logbook, not a pilot.

Wrong. The LAST signature in the logbook is the pilots. I know, I fly them almost everyday. It is the mechanics job to fill out the airworthiness block after the inspection or repair but it is the PILOTS responsibility to make sure the job is done.

FAR. Sorry, but this issue has nothing to do with RLA. Strictly FAR.

 

[crazystnic]

Yep that did not take long, sometimes I will post information and facts in political forums (boom does not take long for someone state emphatically that I am a republican or a democrat based on my respone against their postioin or party).

I have no dog here, but time will show (unless us air goes bankrupt first). I am not going to argue about what I know to be false, but if you are so sure I work for america west, if you have so much conviction, well just goes to show you how horriblly wrong you are, just like you are wrong about the final outcome here, You guys just dont get it, Your the equivalent of religious fanatics, there is no use to try to reason with you.

Mediation needs to be brought in, professionals need to get both sides talking, this had got to stop

since you have no dog in this fight your opinion doesn't matter... I'd be glad to have the two sides try to sit down and work this out but that doesn't seem likely now does it....

We had no joint contract which is a requirement to using the NIC.. So without changes there will be no NIC>

and if it ever tries to rear it's ugly head after all the legal wrangling, appeals and further review by the 9th.. I'd say we are a good 7-10 years away.

 

[crazystnic]

Yes the east is on LOA 93. That has nothing to do with the west. It was your company that was about to close the doors. It was your pilots that voted to accept LOA 93. It is the east pilots that are keeping east pilots on LOA 93. We are laughing because it is a self inflicted wound but you guys are so blinded by the Nicolau that you can’t see that.

The damage is caused by east pilot blinded by emotion keeping west pilots from a better contract.

BTW nice attempt at trying to overstate your position. It is 16.8 years not 18 years. That guy with 16.8 years was the bottom junior reserve pilot for the airline. The exact same position that a new hire at AWA held. That is really what 16.8 years bought you at AAA.

That really is the problem for you east pilots. Nicolau forced you to take a hard look at your careers. 16 years of your lives wasted at AAA to be worse off that you were as a new hire in 1988. After 23 years you guys were still on reserve. When you compare that to the career of an AWA pilots it had to piss you off. Heck, compare your carrier with any major airline and it has to piss you off. But east pilots agreed to a process. A third party created a list. You are not going to invent your own list and try and make up for 16 years of a failed carrier at the expense of the west pilots.

The damage is the delay caused entirely by east pilots. You are damaging yourselves. That is self inflicted. To bad. Our damage is caused by the east.

**********************************
yes but why no adjustment for attrition? and no putting the 517 at the top is not an adjustment for attrition.
NIC screwed it up and now we all pay.

I'm sure we can at least agree on that.

 

[IADair]

since you have no dog in this fight your opinion doesn't matter... I'd be glad to have the two sides try to sit down and work this out but that doesn't seem likely now does it....

We had no joint contract which is a requirement to using the NIC.. So without changes there will be no NIC>

and if it ever tries to rear it's ugly head after all the legal wrangling, appeals and further review by the 9th.. I'd say we are a good 7-10 years away.

If facts dont matter (in your opinon) so be it brother, I think that us aiirways should have been put out of its misery years ago. however an opinon of the world being round is a fact, and you guys can go on and on for years about how the world is flat but it aint going to change the truth. Hey if you want to imply that message boards are not to post info unless you work for the company than good for you brother, that is truely your opinon.

yeah it appears that is your leaderships strategy, just to drag this along until many retire, whatever floats your boat. you can double talk nic all you want but in the long run it aint going to work in the courts. It is was it is.

 

[700UW]

And who is the FINAL AUTHORITY as far as the acceptance of that sign off? The CAPTAIN. The Captain signs the logbook, which signifies he is satisfied with the maintenance, or writes up the aircraft saying a maintenance issue is to be addressed. The captain accepts the electronically sent flight release, which signifies he/she is satisfied all factors of the flight are acceptable, including the maintenance of the aircraft.

You can refuse an airplane, but you dont determine the airworthiness of the plane, that is maintenance's job, you dont have the authority nor an A&P license to sign off a repair. And the airworthiness block and the repair and the job cards are stamped and signed of by the A&P, not a pilot, go ahead and sign it off and the FAA will be on you in a NY minute. You went to school to learn how to fly, not to repair an airplane.

 

[700UW]

Wrong. The LAST signature in the logbook is the pilots. I know, I fly them almost everyday. It is the mechanics job to fill out the airworthiness block after the inspection or repair but it is the PILOTS responsibility to make sure the job is done.

FAR. Sorry, but this issue has nothing to do with RLA. Strictly FAR.

Really? That is the mechanic, his lead and the supervisor, you dont hold an A&P, never been to school on each type of plane and its systems. A pilot does not inspect a plane, that is an Inspector's job, see we do have them at US Airways. And each repair does not require and inspector's sign off.

You're really barking up the wrong tree.

Never seen a pilot in any maintenance training class.

A pilot cannot repair nor sign off a repair on a job card nor a logbook.

 

[Black Swan]

You can refuse an airplane, but you dont determine the airworthiness of the plane, that is maintenance's job, you dont have the authority nor an A&P license to sign off a repair. And the airworthiness block and the repair and the job cards are stamped and signed of by the A&P, not a pilot, go ahead and sign it off and the FAA will be on you in a NY minute. You went to school to learn how to fly, not to repair an airplane.

That is absolutely not true. A pilot is absolutely empowered with the decision to declare an aircraft not airworthy. And in that determination will refuse to sign the logbook. A pilot is able to declare an aircraft un airworthy, and then have maintenance called in to repair the defect. Are you saying if a pilot arrives at an aircraft for his flight, and finds damage in the engine, and writes it up he/she has not just determined that aircraft to be not airworthy? You are absolutely incorrect. Nobody said a pilot can sign off the repair. The determination of airworthiness is with pilots, FAA inspectors as well as mechanics. Both can make the determination. Only one can restore the airworthiness, and that is the mechanic.