US Pilots Labor Discussion

[700UW]

A pilot does not declare a plane unworthy, you can right up a discrepancy its maintenance's job to declare it airworthy or not.

GO read the FARs, you dont hold an A&P license, you cant repair, nor sign off an inspection, nor a repair in the logbook nor the job card.

You dont have the schooling nor the license for that.

I cant count how many times a pilot writes something up and maintenance cant replicate the problem and the plane is signed off as airworthy.

§ 65.103 Repairman certificate: Privileges and limitations.
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(a) A certificated repairman may perform or supervise the maintenance, preventive maintenance, or alteration of aircraft or aircraft components appropriate to the job for which the repairman was employed and certificated, but only in connection with duties for the certificate holder by whom the repairman was employed and recommended.

(B) A certificated repairman may not perform or supervise duties under the repairman certificate unless the repairman understands the current instructions of the certificate holder by whom the repairman is employed and the manufacturer's instructions for continued airworthiness relating to the specific operations concerned.

(c) This section does not apply to the holder of a repairman certificate (light-sport aircraft) while that repairman is performing work under that certificate.

[Doc. No. 18241, 45 FR 46738, July 10, 1980, as amended by Amdt. 65–45, 69 FR 44879, July 27, 2004]

 

[Black Swan]

You can refuse an airplane, but you dont determine the airworthiness of the plane, that is maintenance's job, you dont have the authority nor an A&P license to sign off a repair. And the airworthiness block and the repair and the job cards are stamped and signed of by the A&P, not a pilot, go ahead and sign it off and the FAA will be on you in a NY minute. You went to school to learn how to fly, not to repair an airplane.

GENERAL OPERATING AND FLIGHT RULES
14CFR PART 91

Civil Aircraft AIRWORTHINESS
Section 91.7
(a) "No person may operate a civil aircraft unless it is in AIRWORTHY condition.
(B) "The pilot in command of a civil aircraft is responsible for determining whether that aircraft is in condition for safe flight. The pilot in command shall discontinue the flight when unairworthy mechanical, electrical, or structural conditions occur."




So, if the pilot in command is responsible for discontinuing, he /she has obviously complied with the FAR and determined the aircraft not AIRWORTHY. Nobody said anything about us repairing.

 

[Black Swan]

A pilot does not declare a plane unworthy, you can right up a discrepancy its maintenance's job to declare it airworthy or not.

GO read the FARs, you dont hold an A&P license, you cant repair, nor sign off an inspection, nor a repair in the logbook nor the job card.

You dont have the schooling nor the license for that.

I cant count how many times a pilot writes something up and maintenance cant replicate the problem and the plane is signed off as airworthy.

I can't begin to count the times a mechanic has signed off a repair, only to have it happen again in the subsequent flight...............Sometimes you just cannot get the thing to show it happens each time or scenario. We are talking machines.

 

[700UW]

Ok here is what proves you wrong, an airplane has an engine change, it is signed off by a mechanic, and an inspector, you dont see the work, the job cards and know if everything is done properly, now do you?

Maintenance does the engine run and declares the plane airworthy.

So tell me Mr Pilot, how do you know the engine change was done and if it was done properly when your not involved in the engine change nor do you have access to all the paperwork involved?

Also, never seen a pilot certifying a plane in Heavy Mtc that it is airworthy after the overhaul?

Yes the plane is given a test flight to see if there are any problems, but you and your fellow pilots have no idea what was done to the airplane during overhaul.

So how do you know the plane is airworthy?

Never seen a pilot use a boroscope to check the compressor of an engine, nor crawl into the fuel tank to ensure the repair was done right.

Your posting symantics. in reality you have no idea of what was done to the plane.

 

[Black Swan]

Ok here is what proves you wrong, an airplane has an engine change, it is signed off by a mechanic, and an inspector, you dont see the work, the job cards and know if everything is done properly, now do you?

Maintenance does the engine run and declares the plane airworthy.

So tell me Mr Pilot, how do you know the engine change was done and if it was done properly when your not involved in the engine change nor do you have access to all the paperwork involved?

Also, never seen a pilot certifying a plane in Heavy Mtc that it is airworthy after the overhaul?

Yes the plane is given a test flight to see if there are any problems, but you and your fellow pilots have no idea what was done to the airplane during overhaul.

So how do you know the plane is airworthy?

Never seen a pilot use a boroscope to check the compressor of an engine, nor crawl into the fuel tank to ensure the repair was done right.

Your posting symantics. in reality you have no idea of what was done to the plane.

Nobody contests your scenario. The fact the mechanics and inspectors are licensed and signed the repair is good enough for me, and their determination of airworthiness. No problem. I would have no problem signing for said aircraft. But, if during the next start sequence, the engine fails to respond in normal fashion and is shut down as a result. I have just determined a problem with such repair potentially, and make the REQUIRED logbook entry. This act, has just removed the airworthiness of the aircraft. Ask any FAA inspector. Look at the FAR I quoted. You are confusing issues.


Civil Aircraft AIRWORTHINESS
Section 91.7
(a) "No person may operate a civil aircraft unless it is in AIRWORTHY condition.
( "The pilot in command of a civil aircraft is responsible for determining whether that aircraft is in condition for safe flight. The pilot in command shall discontinue the flight when unairworthy mechanical, electrical, or structural conditions occur."

 

[Pi brat]

Parker was visionary with this concept and tried desperately to get a deal done, the us airways pilots are a huge hurdle to overcome to get this done, the latest UNITED/USairways deal had to be structure to circumvent the pilots, it could not be done so Continental got involved, end of ballgame.



You thnk Parker really cares? low wages are better for shareholders, of course he will go through the motions (legally and otherwiise) to prevent liability. USairways management iis going to court to see how to proceed with the contract, think about it, how patheitic is that.

Your statements above seem to contradict each other. You say that Parker was visionary to try and merge the airline, but that he doesn't care about wages. That not caring and taking advantage of the east pay structure is the main thing that got us to this mess, and is a roadblock to future mergers!!!!!!!!! He couldn't help himself from taking advantage of it to the detriment of the company. Now he is reaping what he has sown.

And yes, west pilots have to pay dues to USAPA. USAPA is the legal CBA of all US Airways pilots and all US Airways pilots are required to pay dues.

 

[cactusboy53]

since you have no dog in this fight your opinion doesn't matter... I'd be glad to have the two sides try to sit down and work this out but that doesn't seem likely now does it....

We had no joint contract which is a requirement to using the NIC.. So without changes there will be no NIC and if it ever tries to rear it's ugly head after all the legal wrangling, appeals and further review by the 9th.. I'd say we are a good 7-10 years away.

OK....I do have a dog in this "fight". There are not TWO groups, there is ONE group. Your pilot group is one of THREE parties (prior to the inception of USAPA) that agreed to the tentative agreement (uh, that would also be considered a "contract", Bub) that includes the approval of the arbitrated seniority list.

USAPA by a majority vote is supposed to represent ALL of the pilots of the NEW US Airways. As the new CBL (let's face it, 3 years is HARDLY NEW), USAPA must administrate all contracts, letters of agreements, side letters and ALL other tenets of all (FAIRLY....that's a stinking laugh). This does include the combined seniority list that was a product of an agreed upon process through the former CBA.

You may buy (and I do mean BUY) more delay, but you will not escape the final outcome. In the meantime you will continue to GIVE Parker an airline CEO's wet dream....MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of dollars in bankruptcy wage savings. El Presidente is a LAUGHING STOCK on the ninth floor. USAPA supporters clearly have no integrity (why exactly would ANY west pilot sit at a negotiating table knowing that you cold not be trusted at your word), no shame, and are the pariah's of the commercial aviation community.

 

[delldude]

Nobody contests your scenario. The fact the mechanics and inspectors are licensed and signed the repair is good enough for me, and their determination of airworthiness. No problem. I would have no problem signing for said aircraft. But, if during the next start sequence, the engine fails to respond in normal fashion and is shut down as a result. I have just determined a problem with such repair potentially, and make the REQUIRED logbook entry. This act, has just removed the airworthiness of the aircraft. Ask any FAA inspector. Look at the FAR I quoted. You are confusing issues.


Civil Aircraft AIRWORTHINESS
Section 91.7
(a) "No person may operate a civil aircraft unless it is in AIRWORTHY condition.
( "The pilot in command of a civil aircraft is responsible for determining whether that aircraft is in condition for safe flight. The pilot in command shall discontinue the flight when unairworthy mechanical, electrical, or structural conditions occur."

Both of you are correct but looking at two different shades of the same color. Like the pilot says, he has faith in the work that was done in heavy, documented and signed off by Inspection and Production to be released for revenue service. Now that same pilot reviews the sign offs and such for said work and by doing that is basically agreeing the aircraft has been made airworthy.If something arises inflight or at the gate, the aircraft commander has the responsibility of taking the aircraft out of service until the appropriate remedies have been taken and once again released for service IAW FAR's and MPPM.
Which in a nutshell makes about three or four levels of acceptance for airworthiness and safety in flight.

Sir, you show 91.7 of civil reg's.....shouldn't it be in 121 or 135?

 

[cactusboy53]

Sorry, only 16.8 yrs. In your entitled world, this is still OK. You will never get the Nic. As McIlvenna was told to his face, "all the risk lies with the west...."

......while the statement that you quote may have been said to McIlvenna, the following statement was SAID by our own union President & VP is a publication: "No ALPA seniority integration arbitration result has ever been set aside by the courts..." (US AIRWAVES June/July 2000).

.......Here's another one: "The only certainty in seniority integration is the outcome is NEVER CERTAIN....Each case presents its own facts and equities, and each requires a resolution tailor-made to the situation presented." US AIRWAVES Jan/Feb/Mar 2002

All you are buying is delay & misery. It is costing me a little, it is costing YOU and the other USAPA supporters HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS....straight into Parker's pockets. Cleary has OVERSPENT the budget with all of his legal maneuvers, and we don't have a budget for the next merger (you know...the event that Parker can't help but mention EVERY TIME he is in front of a microphone).

 

[Black Swan]

Ok here is what proves you wrong, an airplane has an engine change, it is signed off by a mechanic, and an inspector, you dont see the work, the job cards and know if everything is done properly, now do you?

Maintenance does the engine run and declares the plane airworthy.

So tell me Mr Pilot, how do you know the engine change was done and if it was done properly when your not involved in the engine change nor do you have access to all the paperwork involved?

Also, never seen a pilot certifying a plane in Heavy Mtc that it is airworthy after the overhaul?

Yes the plane is given a test flight to see if there are any problems, but you and your fellow pilots have no idea what was done to the airplane during overhaul.

So how do you know the plane is airworthy?

Never seen a pilot use a boroscope to check the compressor of an engine, nor crawl into the fuel tank to ensure the repair was done right.

Your posting symantics. in reality you have no idea of what was done to the plane.

How about Mr. Private Pilot or Student pilot at the local airstrip. They own their own airplane. It was signed off on an annual inspection 8 months ago. The pilot gets in the airplane, starts the engine. No mechanic signed off the day before, week before, or six months before. The engine runs roughly when the mag check is accomplished. Very rough. If that pilot were to continue that flight, after determining a problem with the airworthiness, (which is what they did with the mag check among other checks) it would be in direct violation of the FAR I quoted. The knowledge and skill that pilot possessed with the training they received, imparted the necessary training to determine airworthiness. They are REQUIRED to return from flight due to having an aircraft UNWORTHY to fly. Had they continued to operate that un Airworthy aircraft and it crashed, then it would lead to careless and reckless operation of an aircraft as well, among other things.

 

[Pi brat]

This place is running like a fine Canal St. watch. A total of 5 AB captain reserves left available today. 0-CLT, 3-PHL and 2-DCA.

That's about the 5th day this month that I have seen that they have run out of reserve captains in CLT

 

[Black Swan]

Both of you are correct but looking at two different shades of the same color. Like the pilot says, he has faith in the work that was done in heavy, documented and signed off by Inspection and Production to be released for revenue service. Now that same pilot reviews the sign offs and such for said work and by doing that is basically agreeing the aircraft has been made airworthy.If something arises inflight or at the gate, the aircraft commander has the responsibility of taking the aircraft out of service until the appropriate remedies have been taken and once again released for service IAW FAR's and MPPM.
Which in a nutshell makes about three or four levels of acceptance for airworthiness and safety in flight.

Sir, you show 91.7 of civil reg's.....shouldn't it be in 121 or 135?

You are correct in the USAirways scenario. I gave the basic level of determination, to show that your basic student pilot, or A&P at a small grass strip can also make the determination of an aircraft being not airworthy. It has nothing to do with being an airline pilot, or airline mechanic. All levels are responsible when it comes to this. Thanks for your input!

 

[Pi brat]

Sir, you show 91.7 of civil reg's.....shouldn't it be in 121 or 135?

We have to follow all FARs, 121 just piles on a bunch more!

 

[cactusboy53]

Serious question, if you are willing to share: How is reform USAPA doing? Are you getting much of a response from east pilots?

Anyone know how the recall of Cleary is going?

Pi;
Not too bad. We actually should have the numbers to attempt changes in the constitution without any help. That said, I have handed out a dozen or so petitions to east pilots and will continue to do so. One I know personally knows the Nicolau will be the seniority list. He took all three petitions and sent them in.

I have torn up the seniority petition in front of yellow lanyard wearers and asked "Are you truly pleased with USAPA and Mike Cleary's running said "union"?..."Are you OK with him doing ANYTHING that he deems necessary WITHOUT the specific approval of the BPR?"...etc. These pilots agreed to take the petitions and read the content.

I don't know when we will have enough, but the response is doing well and is steady. I'm not an ALPA fan myself, and I think that when the courts ultimately tell the parties what is legally required...I think we could be a very effective independent union. Right now the leader is in his office stating ....."I can't be out of money, I still have checks!". One of my biggest concerns is that we are NOT prepared for another merger (financially OR strategically). We have collectively spent over 15 Million dollars (both sides) to first get to the Nicolau Award, and now for you to try and dodge the Nicolau Award (while I and my group defend it). In the meantime we have all watched as the economic window to a much improved contract SLAM SHUT. If this keeps up, the window will open and shut again.

The west group will not lay down. At some point the courts will tell Doug that he either must use the Nicolau or face the possibility of a hybrid DFR lawsuit. Doug is simply looking for the courts to do his work for him....he walks in to a room in a light blue shirt and chinos and says..."Sorry guys...this is what the courts say I have to do...." Which way do you REALLY think the courts are going to ultimately lean? I don't think it's that tough of a guess.

 

[SparrowHawk]

At some point the courts will tell Doug that he either must use the Nicolau or face the possibility of a hybrid DFR lawsuit. Doug is simply looking for the courts to do his work for him....he walks in to a room in a light blue shirt and chinos and says..."Sorry guys...this is what the courts say I have to do...." Which way do you REALLY think the courts are going to ultimately lean? I don't think it's that tough of a guess.

I'm Smiling like the freakin' Cheshire Cat here! FINALLY somebody is waking up to the reality of the situation. $15,000,000 is a lot of money to waste in a legal pissing match.

Beside the current F/A contract, why do you think Jerry Glass is on the job. He's there to break you.