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US Pilots Labor Discussion

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Of course he's incorrect.

He doesn't help your argument ergo he must be wrong and "just a pilot."

I'm curious here as to how many east pilots understand the process. Hypothetically, if the east does win LOA93, what would happen?

Well, here you go:

1. You won't see a pay increase in your next paycheck or the one after that. Heck, if you see any pay increase at all it would be a miracle. That remedy phase can take a very long time.

2. The company can choose not to pay it out for various reasons. I'm sure the fact that is was negotiated by a different CBA would be a great excuse. Heck, what is the definition of final and binding anyway? Just because an arbitrator makes a decision doesn't really matter if one side disagrees with it right? I mean, there is precedence for this isn't there?

I'm trying to figure out the exact case, but it had to do with a seniority issue. Its on the tip of my tongue.

East guys, I wouldn't be holding my breath for an LOA 93 win. And even if you do win, you still lose.
If you can show me, in the LOA 93 pay discussion where it says what he states, then I will agree with you. Your addition of "of course he is a pilot, and doesn't help your argument is childish, and superfluous. I say you have no evidence to back up your claim, and you are trying to discredit by falling back to that crap. If you can show me where it says NEGOTIATE, or any SNAPBACK, I will agree with you, and Brookman. Until then, I rest my case. And refrain from attacking you personally.
 
East guys, I wouldn't be holding my breath for an LOA 93 win. And even if you do win, you still lose.


We are not holding our breath. Not sure I follow your logic that we "lose" with an East Pilot victory on LOA 93. If we win, I will thank every West Pilot I see for not demanding pay parity for the East.
 
He gets paid by the hour, he's in no rush to come to a quick conclusion. Yes, he is an "attorney" LMAO.
They dont get paid by the hour, each side, the union and the company pay the fee which when I was a rep for the IAM was about $3,000 per side.
 
Brookman got it wrong!

No, he got it right.

You really think that was his own, uneducated opinion?

It wasn't.

He was briefed by those that negotiated the LOA as well as the lawyers that were involved. This big letter that he sent out was not something he pulled out of his ass.

And it was submitted into evidence as part of the arbitration so I think you don't give Brookman the value that Kasher gives him.

You guys are going to lose this one.
 
Of course he's incorrect.

He doesn't help your argument ergo he must be wrong and "just a pilot."

I'm curious here as to how many east pilots understand the process. Hypothetically, if the east does win LOA93, what would happen?

Well, here you go:

1. You won't see a pay increase in your next paycheck or the one after that. Heck, if you see any pay increase at all it would be a miracle. That remedy phase can take a very long time.

2. The company can choose not to pay it out for various reasons. I'm sure the fact that is was negotiated by a different CBA would be a great excuse. Heck, what is the definition of final and binding anyway? Just because an arbitrator makes a decision doesn't really matter if one side disagrees with it right? I mean, there is precedence for this isn't there?

I'm trying to figure out the exact case, but it had to do with a seniority issue. Its on the tip of my tongue.

East guys, I wouldn't be holding my breath for an LOA 93 win. And even if you do win, you still lose.

I am going to say you are incorrect about number 2. This one, is final and binding. This one is a different animal, between the company and a union. Big difference between this an an internal union dispute/bargaining position. Wait, and you'll see shortly.
 
It is used 2 times in that very short discussion. To me, that is extensive. Pardon me if you feel i exceeded the limit. And by the way, just using it ONCE in the discussion is fine for me, and hopefully for Kasher. There was NO other word referenced other than FROZEN. Kind of like the word DEAD, there is no doubt as to what it means, once or twice..... The rates frozen are the LOA 84 rates, or the CURRENT rate. There is no need to give the rate it reverts to. The term FREEZE deals with those rates. That is what they go back to, not some new rate. Show us where it says they have to go to a new NEGOTIATED rate? The date Dec 31 2009 was there for a reason. That is a nice cold day in December, where things thaw to the old rate. Since we are questioning, why the date Clear? Why is the date there? And even more importantly of why the dates are so important, ESPECIALLY the start date,(even more than the end date) clearly 5/01/04 is this: This is the START point. They could not reach earlier into the contract to achieve the lower pay rate. Did that FREEZE start any other date? NO. Why not? It had that date. An east pilot looked at his W-2 and saw the cut started on that date. So if that date meant nothing as you say, then how would they, how could they, ever PICK A POINT TO START THE CUT??? So if that May date meant something, as every east pilot and the COMPANY knows, as that is the date the cuts started, then how can they arbitrarily blow off the Dec 31 2009 as some date that means nothing? They can't! It has absolute meaning as does the first date, when something drastic started.Something drastic ended. The FREEZE ended. The very fact they used the start date, in itself validates the end date. Why is the date in the pay discussion, and NO other section? Somebody as smart as Kasher will see the date means something. FREEZE THROUGH DEC 31, 2009. Not one day longer. It ends on that date. We got Parker by the short ones on Dec 31 2009, and most of us knew it. You have a nice day clear.
How about answering my question? What pay rates do you think you will go back to. Point to the document that says what rate they go to.

You can wish and hope and pray all day long. That date had to do with one thing.


Duration: Amendable date December 31, 2009.

You asked why December 31, 2009 is next to pay freeze. That is the date that the east could start to negotiate new rates. There is an amendable date on all RLA contracts. Nothing changes in them until it is negotiated. Brookman is more than a pilot. He was an ALPA guy and also has something to do with the grievance lady. So trying to downplay what he has to say is not going to work.

Read the transcript. 2 things.ATSB loans were for 7 years. This is only 5 years until 2009. US Air should have been making money after 5 years and would have been the time to renegotiate pay rates. The company called the first one a restructuring agreement because they had to restructure the way US Air did business and never go back to the old way of doing business and pay rates. They could not afford it.

Second look at the next line. Lump sum payments. Why do you think they picked Jan. 1, 2010????? That was a little money as pay back during renegotiations. You were not going to get $35 million PLUS snap back. Never going happen while you still had ATSB loans and taking US Air back to old wages.

That lump sum was your pay off not uncreased wages. Why do you think you only got two payment and they ended this year????? The ATSB loans would have been over and in a normal situation with reasonable NC you would have have a new contract. But you east guys decided that you were smarter than the rest of the world and fail to read legal documents correctly.

So enjoy LOA 93 and your current rates.

Again what rate do you think you are going to get and where does it say that?
 
They dont get paid by the hour, each side, the union and the company pay the fee which when I was a rep for the IAM was about $3,000 per side.


I'm not saying that you are wrong, but I would venture to guess that the LOA 93 arbitration is way more than $3,000. If it is just one set fee that also could explain why it is taking him some time to come to a decision. At the end of the day, the legal system is slow.
 
We are not holding our breath. Not sure I follow your logic that we "lose" with an East Pilot victory on LOA 93. If we win, I will thank every West Pilot I see for not demanding pay parity for the East.

While I wasn't opposed to your group getting pay parity, what you should remember are Doug Parker's words (paraphrasing): You will get pay parity through an new joint contract ONLY. The west group could shouted pay parity from the rooftops, and it would have made NO DIFFERENCE.

Your group pulled out of Joint Negotiations just after May 2007 at the instruction of your MEC. We all know the rest of the story: 4 years later, a new union with a new contract PROMISED in 6 months. A union leadership that is getting FAT on flight pay loss (many of the AWA ALPA volunteers NEVER took FPL, even though they were entitled to do so). A union run much like the Lord of the Flies dominion.

I truly hope you win the LOA 93 grievance. While you battle Parker for the definition of "final & binding" in an arbitration process, the west pilot group will become the lower paid labor source...gee, I wonder what that means regarding growth & minimum fleet? I wonder where the next set of A330's go?

Be careful what you wish for Sport, you might just get it.
 
We are not holding our breath. Not sure I follow your logic that we "lose" with an East Pilot victory on LOA 93. If we win, I will thank every West Pilot I see for not demanding pay parity for the East.

You will lose because you will not see the money.

You won't see any retroactive money.

Nothing will change.
 
How about answering my question? What pay rates do you think you will go back to. Point to the document that says what rate they go to.

You can wish and hope and pray all day long. That date had to do with one thing.




You asked why December 31, 2009 is next to pay freeze. That is the date that the east could start to negotiate new rates. There is an amendable date on all RLA contracts. Nothing changes in them until it is negotiated. Brookman is more than a pilot. He was an ALPA guy and also has something to do with the grievance lady. So trying to downplay what he has to say is not going to work.

Read the transcript. 2 things.ATSB loans were for 7 years. This is only 5 years until 2009. US Air should have been making money after 5 years and would have been the time to renegotiate pay rates. The company called the first one a restructuring agreement because they had to restructure the way US Air did business and never go back to the old way of doing business and pay rates. They could not afford it.

Second look at the next line. Lump sum payments. Why do you think they picked Jan. 1, 2010????? That was a little money as pay back during renegotiations. You were not going to get $35 million PLUS snap back. Never going happen while you still had ATSB loans and taking US Air back to old wages.

That lump sum was your pay off not uncreased wages. Why do you think you only got two payment and they ended this year????? The ATSB loans would have been over and in a normal situation with reasonable NC you would have have a new contract. But you east guys decided that you were smarter than the rest of the world and fail to read legal documents correctly.

So enjoy LOA 93 and your current rates.

Again what rate do you think you are going to get and where does it say that?
The pay rate, will be the rate at 5/01/04, plus 6% The frozen rate, then the yearly 3% raise. That is now 6% of that rate. Not bad!
 
While I wasn't opposed to your group getting pay parity, what you should remember are Doug Parker's words (paraphrasing): You will get pay parity through an new joint contract ONLY. The west group could shouted pay parity from the rooftops, and it would have made NO DIFFERENCE.

Your group pulled out of Joint Negotiations just after May 2007 at the instruction of your MEC. We all know the rest of the story: 4 years later, a new union with a new contract PROMISED in 6 months. A union leadership that is getting FAT on flight pay loss (many of the AWA ALPA volunteers NEVER took FPL, even though they were entitled to do so). A union run much like the Lord of the Flies dominion.

I truly hope you win the LOA 93 grievance. While you battle Parker for the definition of "final & binding" in an arbitration process, the west pilot group will become the lower paid labor source...gee, I wonder what that means regarding growth & minimum fleet? I wonder where the next set of A330's go?

Be careful what you wish for Sport, you might just get it.
Cactusboy 53, I for one will push for you to get that raise also. All for one, one for all. Why not?
 
I truly hope you win the LOA 93 grievance. While you battle Parker for the definition of "final & binding" in an arbitration process, the west pilot group will become the lower paid labor source...gee, I wonder what that means regarding growth & minimum fleet? I wonder where the next set of A330's go?

Bingo.

The east loses one way or the other.

I'd love to watch them argue final and binding with the company.
 
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