US Pilots Labor Discussion

[traderjake]

regardless of what trader wants to believe and is trying to project onto this pilot group

It's not what I believe, it's a statement of historical fact.

In the last four pilot seniority arbitrations the arbitrators determined that slotting by equipment and status was the fair way to combine pilot seniority lists and DOH/LOS was not.

If you want to believe those arbitrators got it wrong 4 times in a row be my guest.

I don't believe the courts share your opinion.

I recommend you stop digging that hole you're in.

 

[73320]

Never been to a merger, eh, junior? I never said that now did I? The key here is LOS, which equates to DOH, right?....so you want to cash in your lottery ticket and leap frog by 15 yrs....not gonna happen!

breeze

A couple of points here Breeze. LOS may or may not equal DOH. In the case of many east pilots their LOS may be half or less time than their DOH. Than you resort to the often quoted lottery ticket bile, as if the west was awarded incredible sums of money. Reality = the west merely kept their relative position that was awarded by a power (the arbitrator) recognized to integrate the two lists and was not purchased over the counter on a one in a million gamble. One may contrast this factual reality with a similar reality of a USAPIAN DOH lottery dream that is much more like a one in a million huge gain for the east. It only seems like a lottery to you because you have 15 year plus LOS junior FO's and the west is much more like all other airlines and a 1995 AWA hire is a line holding CAPT. In USAPIA where you have sadly had to reside for the past 15 years, all OAL which have similar 1995 hire dates as Line holding Capt.s are also lottery ticket winners. I guess one might say there is some reality in that in how ones progression may or may not produce expected career progression but the NIC is not the lottery ticket. If I am a 1995 AWA line holding CAPT. and upgraded in 2000 did I win the lottery if I am still a line holding CAPT? Please define the lottery win and what gains this CAPT. was granted that define lottery win. I would define a 15 year junior FO on the date of the merger suddenly becoming senior to a number (majority) of line holding CAPT's an infinitely closer description to a true lottery win than the NIC, which is in fact what USAPA is trying to do is it not? Win a lottery by majority vote? I must say I do not like you chances or all of the risk you have assumed and the cumulative losses you have tallied to date by trying to win the lottery. How about you cease projecting your lottery dreams on the west!

 

[mrbreeze]

Only because the east is the lone group in the industry where 15 years wouldn't even hold a job. The east situation was the oddball, not the method the last 4 arbitration's used - relative position by equipment.

Jim

So Jim,

You are sayng that a pilot with 15 yrs of experience and still flying...not furloughed or ever furloughed, should be placed behind a newhire at AW.....someone who was in grade school when he was hired.

What are your smoking tonight?

breeze

 

[mrbreeze]

It's not what I believe, it's a statement of historical fact.

In the last four pilot seniority arbitrations the arbitrators determined that slotting by equipment and status was the fair way to combine pilot seniority lists and DOH/LOS was not.

If you want to believe those arbitrators got it wrong 4 times in a row be my guest.

I don't believe the courts share your opinion.

I recommend you stop digging that hole your in.

OK,

We have different opinions. You stop throwing that crap in our faces and I will stop showing you how you are wrong.

breeze

 

[73320]

However, they are only batting 500 and it's all new territory as far as where we hit the scene. We are the only group where a 15 yr discrepancy exists. (you would think that if this was a perfect science these guys would bat 1000)

That certainly indicates that the "4 arbitrations" still have not gotten it right, regardless of what trader wants to believe and is trying to project onto this pilot group.

breeze

Once again Breeze it is you who is having grave difficulties with the facts. I can sympathize with how these facts feel to you but you try and shake them off with your emotions and then you frequently project yours' and USAPA's plight and goals and schemes onto the west. Projection is not your strong suit and it bears no fruit but I am sure it is comforting to you in making the arguments you try to make over all these many years. It seems to be all you really have left. Good Luck!

 

[traderjake]

You stop throwing that crap in our faces and I will stop showing you how you are wrong.

Historical facts are not cr*p, you're still digging.

What exactly did I say that was wrong?

 

[mrbreeze]

Once again Breeze it is you who is having grave difficulties with the facts. I can sympathize with how these facts feel to you but you try and shake them off with your emotions and then you frequently project yours' and USAPA's plight and goals and schemes onto the west. Projection is not your strong suit and it bears no fruit but I am sure it is comforting to you in making the arguments you try to make over all these many years. It seems to be all you really have left. Good Luck!

I will be fine.....either way.

My whole point here has only been that the arbitrators are only batting 50%, contrary to what trader has tried to project onto this pilot group.

We are the first pilot group to stand up and say.....no, this isn't right! New territory here and I think it's worth the fight.

I am not going to go back into which SLI is right or wrong. I am only pointing out that the arbitrators have not proven themselves yet, and our case is probably the most unique one yet.

Trader would have you believe that it's a done deal, thanks to the arbitrators.....but IMHO, that is not the case.

breeze

 

[73320]

So Jim,

You are sayng that a pilot with 15 yrs of experience and still flying...not furloughed or ever furloughed, should be placed behind a newhire at AW.....someone who was in grade school when he was hired.

What are your smoking tonight?

breeze

The arbitrator said that and probably nobody likes the idea of a 15 year LOS only having enough seniority to hold reserve FO but it happened to them BEFORE the merger not BCAUSE of it. In fact the poor 15 year FO's prospects dramatically improved BECAUSE of the merger, you just want him to have lottery ticket like improvement and be senior to CAPT"S from the other list where much less LOS had enough seniority to hold CAPT. You should have tried to make a deal and help those 15 year FO's capture some east attrition amicably with the west rather than go for the lottery ticket win with DOH where your bottom guy would win it all with a sudden windfall of 2000 west pilots as furlough protection when he had none on the day of the merger, all the upgrades and new flying east, 90% contractual gains east. That was a total and complete clean sweep lottery ticket DOH windfall you have been after for 7 years now and it cost you all much more than $1.

 

[mrbreeze]

Historical facts are not cr*p, you're still digging.

What exactly did I say that was wrong?

You are trying to push the idea that the "4 arbitrations" are gospel, when in fact, half of them have not worked out.

breeze

 

[73320]

I will be fine.....either way.

My whole point here has only been that the arbitrators are only batting 50%, contrary to what trader has tried to project onto this pilot group.

We are the first pilot group to stand up and say.....no, this isn't right! New territory here and I think it's worth the fight.

I am not going to go back into which SLI is right or wrong. I am only pointing out that the arbitrators have not proven themselves yet, and our case is probably the most unique one yet.

Trader would have you believe that it's a done deal, thanks to the arbitrators.....but IMHO, that is not the case.

breeze

I completely agree with you on this case being unique. The only reason it is unique is because the east had 15 year plus LOS pilots on the bottom of their list and I do not believe any company in US history has survived to come into a merger with that fact set. This would not have been a problem if your list was much like all the other airlines in terms of the amount of LOS that would equate to seniority. You have all been trying to act like your list is normal and so DOH seems appropriate to you after all you have been through. Other than dealying the NIC at enormous cost what is USAPA' batting average?

 

[mrbreeze]

The arbitrator said that and probably nobody likes the idea of a 15 year LOS only having enough seniority to hold reserve FO but it happened to them BEFORE the merger not BCAUSE of it. In fact the poor 15 year FO's prospects dramatically improved BECAUSE of the merger, you just want him to have lottery ticket like improvement and be senior to CAPT"S from the other list where much less LOS had enough seniority to hold CAPT. You should have tried to make a deal and help those 15 year FO's capture some east attrition amicably with the west rather than go for the lottery ticket win with DOH where your bottom guy would win it all with a sudden windfall of 2000 west pilots as furlough protection when he had none on the day of the merger, all the upgrades and new flying east, 90% contractual gains east. That was a total and complete clean sweep lottery ticket DOH windfall you have been after for 7 years now and it cost you all much more than $1.

73320,

As I have said many times before......there is an imbalance for some of the senior pilots and a different imbalance for the junior pilots under the NIC. I fully understand your side of the facts as far as the junior side of the list.

I have said many times that the NIC needs to be renegotiated just because of the discrepancies in these areas. But the West pilots will not give in to trying to reach middle ground, so we are where we are. Not totally the West's fault considering the cold shoulder from USAPA.

Don't get me wrong, I am not blaming the West group, but we are all in a unique situation here.

breeze

 

[traderjake]

You are trying to push the idea that the "4 arbitrations" are gospel, when in fact, half of them have not worked out.

I said that the overwhelming probability is that the courts will not allow USAPA to rewrite the seniority list and I stand by that.

If you think you're smarter than the trained, profession arbitrators vote no on any NIC contract forever.

The West is not going to give you a do over.

 

[BoeingBoy]

So Jim,

You are sayng that a pilot with 15 yrs of experience and still flying...not furloughed or ever furloughed

There's your problem right there - the east didn't have such a pilot at the time of the merger...unless you're using pre-US or pre-HP experience. Or are you arguing that the clock should be reset - the merger didn't really happen in 2005. That's just a figment of the west's, management's, the SEC's, the FAA's, the NMB's, etc imagination...

You really oughta quit before you get further out in left field. Arbitrators only batting 50%??? Which arbitrator issued more than one award for a given merger??? The arbitrators in each of the last 4 mergers issued one award each, and each of those awards used relative position by equipment. No ifs, buts, or excepts - 4 arbitration's in a row resulted in awards that used relative position by equipment.

If anyone is trying to throw crap, it's you and your "I really meant..."

If you're so sure you are right, which of the last four arbitrations didn't use relative position by equipment as the basis for the award? No bs about really meaning the groups weren't integrated yet, no waffling, just the award by each arbitrator. Which of the last four weren't based on relative position by equipment?

Jim

 

[nic4us]

You are trying to push the idea that the "4 arbitrations" are gospel, when in fact, half of them have not worked out.

breeze

Here is the bottom line fact of the matter breeze.

All 4 arbitrations were final and binding, and all 4 are not going to go away.

Including ours.

You keep making up extemportaneous bull feces that have absolutely no basis in fact, and in certain instances are outright lies.

 

[fodase]

You are trying to push the idea that the "4 arbitrations" are gospel, when in fact, half of them have not worked out.

breeze

Which ones havent worked out? I was unware that any of the 4 were undone, btw educate yourself on frontier as a federal judge already said it was binding and dismissed the former frontier pilots lawsuit with prejudice