US Pilots Labor Discussion

[fodase]

Explain how USAPA and APA would submit an unratified list(s) to an arbitrator without having an injunction placed on the arbitration (especially when they have ratified lists in their possession that they and the company enforce). DP (and USAPA and APA, for these rates) doesn't want merger interruptis.

You take a very simplistic view. Do you really believe all the legal precedence just goes away? You surely aren't that stupid. Usapa, according to usairways has "actively" avoided the Nic. To the harm of west pilots. Judge Silver stated "it is clear the west pilots are being harmed". Read the company's filings, "usapa inherited the Nic. Seniority list ". In your heart you believe all this history will just disappear? You really think that silvers findings will have no bearings?. Btw 3 lists is a thousand times better for the west than the Doh u scabs are trying to impose, wouldn't u say?

 

[BoeingBoy]

exactly!

If Nic had gone with a DOH list, you'd be jumping up and down screaming that it had to be used even if it weren't "ratified".

The integrated list never had to be ratified - it was final and binding without anyone having a vote except Nic. Even USAPA's merger policy agrees with that. Per the TA, the Nic just couldn't be used till the single cert and contract were in place. The Nic is legal and binding. The only "legal" objections the east has is that they consider it unfair - too bad, so sad, that's life...

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

It is a small part of our unfinished TA, along with the legal objections from the East.

The bottom line is that Parker is gonna pass the buck to the next arbitrator.....that's his out in this phase of the game. He couldn't care less about how the SLI goes as long as he has his legal out.

breeze

It that were true he would have withdrawn the DJ law suit. The case is in judge Silvers hands now. She is going to tell us where we are. When Silver says use the Nicolau or get sued game over.

 

[cleardirect]

Hi Bean,

The NIC has such a lightning rod attached to it.....I think emotions are high against it. If the NIC and DOH are gone with the new SLI and the prospects of an industry styled contract, IMO, it will pass. With the NIC included, well that's a different picture in the eyes of the East pilots, I don't know on that one....it would go to the arbritator for sure.

breeze

What part of your not the majority anymore don't you understand?

You guys go ahead and vote all day everyday against a new contract with the Nicolau used in a new list. It will not matter. The 11000 other votes will.

Besides in the next integration the Nicolau will be diluted by the 9000 AA pilots. It will only hurt a little.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

No 'authority' to use the nic? Um, go ahead and try, I'll bet you get farther than you let on;-)

 

[cleardirect]

If Nic had gone with a DOH list, you'd be jumping up and down screaming that it had to be used even if it weren't "ratified".

The integrated list never had to be ratified - it was final and binding without anyone having a vote except Nic. Even USAPA's merger policy agrees with that. Per the TA, the Nic just couldn't be used till the single cert and contract were in place. The Nic is legal and binding. The only "legal" objections the east has is that they consider it unfair - too bad, so sad, that's life...

Jim

You are correct sir. Excellent explanation.

 

[traderjake]

luvthe9
Posted 08 April 2012 - 09:35 AM •Veteran

Lets all work together, AMR and US pilots to stop this merger this will not be good for either group. Watch for Horton/Parker to play you guys. It will not be good. We can stop this if we work together!!!!!!! America West pilots will think they saved AMR and thus should move to the top of the list. Don't let that happen.
...................................................................................................

Hey luv did you really post this?

Are you wearing a "Keep USAirways My USAirways" button?

 

[Phoenix]

You take a very simplistic view. Do you really believe all the legal precedence just goes away? You surely aren't that stupid. Usapa, according to usairways has "actively" avoided the Nic. To the harm of west pilots. Judge Silver stated "it is clear the west pilots are being harmed". Read the company's filings, "usapa inherited the Nic. Seniority list ". In your heart you believe all this history will just disappear? You really think that silvers findings will have no bearings?. Btw 3 lists is a thousand times better for the west than the Doh u scabs are trying to impose, wouldn't u say?

This seniority dispute has been harmful to everyone. The west has avoided DOH and the East has avoided NIc.

Of course 3 lists is better for the West than a sigle DOH list (just like 3 lists is better than the Nic), but the issue isn't what is best for either side. USAPA is the legal representative to all USAir pilots.

In an arbitration, how can USAPA venture to use anything other than list(s) that are ratified (NIC, DOH, or otherwise)?Even Judge Wake wouldn't allow a list to be in force apart from ratification. If USAPA swore and certified to an arbitrator that a Nic or DOH list was in fact the present list of all USAir pilots they would get their nuts ripped off before noon.

 

[mrbreeze]

If Nic had gone with a DOH list, you'd be jumping up and down screaming that it had to be used even if it weren't "ratified".

The integrated list never had to be ratified - it was final and binding without anyone having a vote except Nic. Even USAPA's merger policy agrees with that. Per the TA, the Nic just couldn't be used till the single cert and contract were in place. The Nic is legal and binding. The only "legal" objections the east has is that they consider it unfair - too bad, so sad, that's life...

Jim

However, if the TA is never consumated, all bets are off....as if the merger never happened in the pilot's arena. The NIC nor the DOH lists were ever consumated, and the objection from our new union has never been addressed, legally. The AWA and USAir pilots were never merged, so now, unless Judge Silver makes a ruling before a merger, the attempt to merge the AWA pilots and the USAir pilots failed...as if it never happened.

breeze

 

[Phoenix]

However, if the TA is never consumated, all bets are off....as if the merger never happened in the pilot's arena. The NIC nor the DOH lists were ever consumated, and the objection from our new union has never been addressed, legally. The AWA and USAir pilots were never merged, so now, unless Judge Silver makes a ruling before a merger, the attempt to merge the AWA pilots and the USAir pilots failed...as if it never happened.

breeze

Is judge silver's expected ruling not based on a TA that is obsolete and overcome by events?

 

[cleardirect]

This seniority dispute has been harmful to everyone. The west has avoided DOH and the East has avoided NIc.

Of course 3 lists is better for the West than a sigle DOH list (just like 3 lists is better than the Nic), but the issue isn't what is best for either side. USAPA is the legal representative to all USAir pilots.

In an arbitration, how can USAPA venture to use anything other than list(s) that are ratified (NIC, DOH, or otherwise)?Even Judge Wake wouldn't allow a list to be in force apart from ratification. If USAPA swore and certified to an arbitrator that a Nic or DOH list was in fact the present list of all USAir pilots they would get their nuts ripped off before noon.

Lack of a ratified contract does not nullify arbitration. There is only one integrated list. That list is not a made up DOH list.

Usapa and east pilots have agreed that straight DOH is unfair. Knowingly handing over an unfair list will get usapa and APA in court.

So if usapa tries to hand over a list it has to include C&R. How does usapa get the company and APA to accept those C&R? They are not going to waste their time negotiating C&R. It takes time and wil cost money. Especially now PHX will be sure to shrink or close. How do you protect PHX pilot using DOH scattered through both systems?

Can't be done.

Now use the Nicolau. No C&R, no delay, no extra cost. You guys can get with the program of get run over. Better start get used to the future. No DOH.

 

[cleardirect]

Is judge silver's expected ruling not based on a TA that is obsolete and overcome by events?

Has the current T/A expired for some reason? Has it been replaced by something else yet?

Until we have a new TA those are the rules Silver has to work with.

 

[Move2CLT]

Is judge silver's expected ruling not based on a TA that is obsolete and overcome by events?

Obsolete?!? How so? What did you do to it?

I just looked at it a few minutes ago and it looked pretty fresh to me. Very usable in fact.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Wrong, wrong, and wrong....

However, if the TA is never consumated, all bets are off....as if the merger never happened in the pilot's arena.

Much of the TA has been consumated. The single ops cert was obtained after a decision was made on which to keep, east furloughees worked on the west side, contract negotiations have taken place, the 190 is flying on the pay rates specifice in the TA, new airplanes are coming and being flown, the minimum fleet counts are being observed, etc - all in compliance with the TA. Much of the what the TA envisioned is happening every day. Per the NMB - the legal authority with decision power - there is only one pilot group. You can thank USAPA for that last one - the gift that keeps on giving.

The NIC nor the DOH lists were ever consumated, and the objection from our new union has never been addressed, legally.

The Nic list was produced using the policy in place with the CBA at the time - a final and binding result. USAPA's objections were part of the Addington case in Wake's court and a jury produced a verdict. All the 9th said was that the case was heard too early, not that it was decided wrongly on the merits. You seem to be falling into the "never ratified" trap - integrated lists determined by arbitration don't have to be ratified - even USAPA effectively says that in it's merger policy for mergers where another union is involved when it specifies A-M procedures will be used.

The AWA and USAir pilots were never merged, so now, unless Judge Silver makes a ruling before a merger, the attempt to merge the AWA pilots and the USAir pilots failed...as if it never happened.

They were merged - the NMB ruled on that when USAPA filed for single carrier status. What you mean is that they were never integrated (at least as of now). But not integrated is different from not merged. Integration, per the TA, required 3 distinct and separate things of which 2 have been accomplished. With no contract, is the single ops cert void? Of course not, so why should the integrated list be void just because one thing hasn't happened yet? If USAPA hadn't insisted on single carrier status, you could have voted down a contract all you wanted and keep the Nic on the shelf forever. Of course, the founders of USAPA didn't think far enough ahead - they only cared about eliminating west's separate contract ratification since they had the majority. But now the AA pilots will be the majority. Is it possible that they learned from the events at US? Get single carrier status as quickly as possible and neither east nor west can hold them hostage via separate contract ratification.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

Is judge silver's expected ruling not based on a TA that is obsolete and overcome by events?

Not so fast. There's no guarantee that there will be a merger with AA at this point, so what events has the TA been overcome by? Ya'll have been counting those chickens before they hatched from "majority rules" all the way to the slam dunk MDA case that was going to eliminate the Nic forever. So far you don't have a single cihcken to call your own...

Jim