US Pilots Labor Thread 3/18-3/25-MUST READ FIRST POST

[Phoenix]

Got anything against Judge Wake? Post it, please, I'd like to know. Judge Wake is highly regarded in this state, I've talked to several lawyers about him, and have read his opinions on a few cases. He has nothing but good marks.

Good marks, eh? And from.. lawyers.. no less.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

MY POINT was that Bernard Madoff WAS very well respected, too. Things change. Or, didn't you notice?

Like I said, do you have any beef against the Judge? Any facts? Or do you wish to pull an Ad Hominem attack on him by comparing him to a bad person?

Weak and lazy way to argue.

If you have some docs on the Judge, please present them, I would like to read them.

 

[Waketurbulence]

It's obvious, the east MO that is. Nicalau was a senile old man. ALPA was the devil and passed the wrong list. Wake is bias'd, it's an Arizona jury. Blame everyone but themselves. Typical...

 

[Art at ISP]

It's obvious, the east MO that is. Nicalau was a senile old man. ALPA was the devil and passed the wrong list. Wake is bias'd, it's an Arizona jury. Blame everyone but themselves. Typical...

That sounds more like a page from the US management playbook, not a union tactic........blame anything but themselves for the bad decisions they have made.....

I just hope for the sake of the other employees at US, there can be some kind of resolution to this issue in the near future. If things continue like this, unfortunately, I see the end game not too far away, and when they break up the company or shut it down, my friends, you can rest assured they will blame the pilots' dispute for the downfall of the company. And with CO moving to Star in the fall, there is less need for US Airways in that alliance--so the breakup may not be too far away..and it does appear that US is the most vulnerable traditional carrier overall right now.

Is there NO acceptable solution where EVERYONE gives up something but you all get to keep your jobs?

If only management was as passionate about running an airline as you guys and gals are about your respective positions in this dispute.........

My BEST to you all.....

 

[Pi brat]

That sounds more like a page from the US management playbook, not a union tactic........blame anything but themselves for the bad decisions they have made.....

I just hope for the sake of the other employees at US, there can be some kind of resolution to this issue in the near future. If things continue like this, unfortunately, I see the end game not too far away, and when they break up the company or shut it down, my friends, you can rest assured they will blame the pilots' dispute for the downfall of the company. And with CO moving to Star in the fall, there is less need for US Airways in that alliance--so the breakup may not be too far away..and it does appear that US is the most vulnerable traditional carrier overall right now.

Is there NO acceptable solution where EVERYONE gives up something but you all get to keep your jobs?

If only management was as passionate about running an airline as you guys and gals are about your respective positions in this dispute.........

My BEST to you all.....

Art,

Thanks for your concern for the US employees, but I'm kind of surprised that you would indicate the the pilot's fight might bring the company down. You should know more than anyone that the management folks at this company are what's bringing it down, with a little help form the worst ecomony since the 30's. Despite being the lowest paid pilots in the industry the US pilots helped contibute to the turn around in on time performance. They couldn't have done it without the pilots.

The pilots fight is in the background, but we are still doing our jobs everyday.

 

[nic4us]

Wow, if that's not the singular piece of evidence for why so many of us want separate permanent operations, no other post is.

Separate operations may be part of the solution that is reached, However, I would not count on that being necessarily detrimental to the West pilot's careers, which was the opinion of Captain Underpants, to whom I offered the hypothetical situation.

 

[Art at ISP]

Pi,

Let me clarify--I am NOT saying that the pilots' dispute is bringing the company down, although it is contributing to the cost issue. I AM saying that IF the company is shut down or broken up, management will BLAME the pilots....there is a significant difference there.

Management is CLEARLY to blame if this happens--they just won't take responsibility for it. They have promoted anymosity between workgroups, made truly poor decisions which resulted in a loss of trust from both employees and customers, and have given the previously MOST loyal customers good reason to go elsewhere. They continue to manage by spreadsheet, stepping over dollars to pick up nickels.

I think it's telling that two different airline managements give such disparate views of the situation in the same week--this week Scott Kirby says that things are stabilizing, while Continental management is truthful and says premium business travel is off significantly.
The difference is that CO is managed by people who know what they're doing, and consider their employees and customers valuable assets rather than liabilities.....

I didn't mean to take this off topic--I truly hope that the fine people I have come to know and call friends at US will have jobs for a long time to come. My concern is that with current management it just may not be possible.

My best to you all...

 

[Piedmont1984]

Art

Management has stated on several occassions that the synergies they were seeking from this merger have already been substantially achieved.

Although they could have been far more proactive in bringing the two pilot groups together - pay parity comes to mind - they are saving much more money by keeping the east on LOA93 and the west on Contract 2004.

In fact, one could come to the reasonable conclusion that this pilot rift is the only thing remaining as an obstacle to Tempe's plan for merger or fragmentation. Either scenario would lead to the end of USAirways as we know it.

 

[nycbusdriver]

...If things continue like this, unfortunately, I see the end game not too far away...

Maybe.

Judge the resolve of the east pilots by the fact that we are ready to go there rather than accept yet another concession to a company and a group of employees who "hate" us.

Let the chips fall where they may. Maybe once the company and that other employee group understands that we are ready for that scenario, they will have a change of attitude and tactic.

And, when it is all over: There is life after USAirways. (That's the dirty little secret that the company hoped we would never discover. It has served them well over the last 10 years. But the the jig, as they say. is UP!)

 

[pilotn79]

The worst case scenario for the West pilots would be to win a DFR ruling in the Arizona lawsuit.

That DEPENDS on one's perception, Mr. Underpants

 

[Pi brat]

Pi,

Let me clarify--I am NOT saying that the pilots' dispute is bringing the company down, although it is contributing to the cost issue. I AM saying that IF the company is shut down or broken up, management will BLAME the pilots....there is a significant difference there.

Management is CLEARLY to blame if this happens--they just won't take responsibility for it. They have promoted anymosity between workgroups, made truly poor decisions which resulted in a loss of trust from both employees and customers, and have given the previously MOST loyal customers good reason to go elsewhere. They continue to manage by spreadsheet, stepping over dollars to pick up nickels.

I think it's telling that two different airline managements give such disparate views of the situation in the same week--this week Scott Kirby says that things are stabilizing, while Continental management is truthful and says premium business travel is off significantly.
The difference is that CO is managed by people who know what they're doing, and consider their employees and customers valuable assets rather than liabilities.....

I didn't mean to take this off topic--I truly hope that the fine people I have come to know and call friends at US will have jobs for a long time to come. My concern is that with current management it just may not be possible.

My best to you all...

Art,

Thanks for the clarification. I think one of my lowest points at the is company in the last few years was when parker stated it didn’t really matter if some FFs left the company, that they just switched around and more were coming than going out. Those of us that have been around a while knew it was folks like you that stuck with us in the bad times that kept us afloat. I think the sharp drop in total revenue shows how that attitude has worked out.

If we go away it really doesn’t matter if they blame us, we will still be gone. In the U.S. it is never the top management’s fault. Look at Wolf, he walked away from the wreck with millions and never looked back. The folks at AIG and B of A really think those bonuses are valid. Until we have a change in those attitudes nothing will change.

Take care and thanks for your support over the years.

 

[nic4us]

Is there NO acceptable solution where EVERYONE gives up something but you all get to keep your jobs?

If only management was as passionate about running an airline as you guys and gals are about your respective positions in this dispute.........

My BEST to you all.....

Art,

Thanks for your concern, and for the level headed post.

The answere to your question is probably not. We already had a solution were everyone gave up something and got to keep their jobs, many even got their jobs back! But that solution was outright rejected by a majority of the pilots, who did not feel that solution was fair enough for them.

However, I say probably not, because I hold out hope that the quickly approaching trial may offer a resolution we should all seek. Many belive that it is an all in, winner take all proposition. I do not. I am optimistic that a decision may come that will facilitate a uniting of the pilot group. I can think of many scenarios in which this is plausible, too many to list here, but putting USAPA in a position where they are going nowhere without West consent might just get us all on the same page.

 

[Metroyet]

I just wanted to remind all you "good union pilots" in good standing to

VOTE FOR CLEARY IN THE RUNOFF!!!!!

We need his ongoing USAPA brand of vision and guidance to ensure our bright futures.

 

[ussnark]

Judge the resolve of the east pilots by the fact that we are ready to go there rather than accept yet another concession to a company and a group of employees who "hate" us.

Why ever would the east pilots cede the last positive they have left, longevity, to anyone? If the west pilots want to fly transatlantic in the left seat, I hear UAL and Aer Lingus are forming a "carrier" to do just that, using "outsourced" pilotage. I think that would fit right into the west philosophy, as relentlessly expounded upon, by west pilots, here in this forum. I bet ALPA would approve that too, just like they did in 1989.

The venture also raises questions about safety, since it's unclear who would regulate an airline not based in the home country of a parent carrier. U.S. limits on foreign ownership would not apply either, because the partnership would be based overseas.

"The regulatory framework isn't as airtight as it should be on these issues," said Brian Havel, associate dean and director of the International Aviation Law Institute at DePaul University's College of Law. "It's an entirely unintended and brilliant consequence of Open Skies," a 2008 trade agreement that allows European and U.S. carriers to offer international flights between those regions.

United thinks the model is viable and will expand its global reach.

Go for it!

 

[Phoenix]

It's obvious, the east MO that is. Nicalau was a senile old man. ALPA was the devil and passed the wrong list. Wake is bias'd, it's an Arizona jury. Blame everyone but themselves. Typical...

ALPA outsourced the construction of the seniority list for its own members.

How on earth anyone could propose that any member or group of members should blame themselves for their position on a seniority list is beyond logic. The idea that individuals should blame themselves is based on the premise that individuals had the responsibility to define their own seniority, rather than union to which they paid dues. If a union abandons the responsibility to define seniority of its own members then dues collection necessarily becomes its preeminent purpose.

Pilots don't blame themselves for their seniority. Pilots only have themselves to blame for paying dues to contradictions.