US Pilots labor thread 4/17-

[nic4us]

You lost me there. What do you mean by east renegs? Votes it down?

If the Nic award stapled the west pilots to the bottom of the list and we had not reached a joint contract by now would it still be "stealing"?

No by reneg, I mean tries to get out of having to comply with its contractual obligations. usapa's entire premise was that a union can negotiate all sections of the contract. While that is true, the TA has specific language of how section 22 would be determined, and it had already been accomplished. usapa's premise is they can ignore the TA, and determine whatever they feel is appropriate. That is they feel they can renege on the portion of theTA governing seniority integration. A contractually mandated system, that was already finished.

If the Nic stapled the west ( in no way does that imply the opposite happened, because the east was most certainly not stapled, and very far from it) the west most likely would not have ratified a joint contract. How that differs from what usapa is trying to do is that would have been in compliance with the TA, not in spite of it. The east had the same power, right up until they voted usapa in and tried to force single ratification to use their numbers not only to change the arbitrated list, but to also force a ratified contract.

usapa is trying to steal what the entire group has, a fair and equitable list reached at by predetermined contractual agreement, and replace it with what they unilaterally think is fair.

 

[Flippin43]

Being that this is USAPA's 2 year Anniversary, shouldn't the executive leadership issue a communique highlighting all of their accomplishments in those years? How about a side by side comparison between campaign promises and Actual results.

I wonder Why USAPA is so conspicuously silent on the matter? Doesn't this anniversary just underscore the huge Triumph?

usapa is busy filing an IMPROPER motion with the 9th circuit. There is too much backslapping going on to notice a calender.


Flip

 

[nic4us]

It is probably more appropriate to say that the east negotiating team walked away from a nearly completed tentative agreement vs. the term "renege".

No, renege is the approriate term.

We have a three way contract called the Transition Agreement. It is between the east pilots, the west pilots and the company. In that contract it specifically states that seniority integration will be determined via ALPA merger policy. That portion of the transition agreement was followed and completed. Only after the fact did the east decide they did not have to live up to that portion of the contract and seek to implement their own version of how to go about seniority integration.

They reneged. Well they tried to anyway.

 

[hp_fa]

This is intended as a serious question.

Why is Seham practically begging some judge, either Wake or the 9th, to refer Seham & Co. for review by the bar association? Since when does an attorney with a case already under submission than ask the appeals court to become a fact court, totally bypassing the trial court, which had specifically retained jurisdiction of the injunction?

My question is totally serious. This is ridiculous behavior.

 

[Flippin43]

This is intended as a serious question.

Why is Seham practically begging some judge, either Wake or the 9th, to refer Seham & Co. for review by the bar association? Since when does an attorney with a case already under submission than ask the appeals court to become a fact court, totally bypassing the trial court, which had specifically retained jurisdiction of the injunction?

My question is totally serious. This is ridiculous behavior.

HP

AOL filed a reponse today, pointing out just what you point out. Bypassing Judge Wake etc.

Should be interesting to see just how "polite" the Judicial system will be with seham.


Flip

 

[SparrowHawk]

HP

AOL filed a reponse today, pointing out just what you point out. Bypassing Judge Wake etc.

Should be interesting to see just how "polite" the Judicial system will be with seham.


Flip

Funny, as I was reading all of this I thought, "Hmm, wonder how "Polite" the UA and CO members of ALPA will be should there actually be a merger between the 2 or 3 airlines. Wouldn't the silence be broken by the sounds of Staple Guns? I would think ALPA would enjoy "spanking" the wayward children of USAPA.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Seniority is negotiable, like crew meals, remember? Heck, Seham says anyone can be shuffled because HE KNOWS. After all, he read UAL v. Rakestraw. Plus he went to law school. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BZi2r_it3U

 

[Metroyet]

I would think ALPA would enjoy "spanking" the wayward children of USAPA.

Why waste the energy. The USAPA idiots will ultimately self inflict more harm upon themselves than any outsider could...it's their M.O.

 

[Pi brat]

It is probably more appropriate to say that the east negotiating team walked away from a nearly completed tentative agreement vs. the term "renege". It was missing a pay proposal and a few other details. But compared to where we are now, leaps and bounds closer. This is one of the reasons why Prater put the PHL reps in the corner for a time out. Too little, too late.

If the Nic was a staple job for the west, I doubt there would be a "USAPA". East would just tell us that DOH is the gold standard and suck it up (Oh wait, they still say that...except the "suck it up" part).

Oh never mind.......Proverbs 9:7-8. I guess well see you in court.....AGAIN.

Yes, just a pay proposal, nothing huge like crew meals! Come on guys, when the Kirby proposal came in it shows how far apart we were. For all of USAPA's faults, I think they are doing the contract properly. I'm in no hurry to give up my capt. seat for another lousy contract, I'll just stay with the lousy contract I have until there is a really good one on the table.

It wouldn't have mattered if the east did tell you to suck it up, there would have been nothing we could have done about it until we had a joint contract, just like now.

It cracks me up when I hear how I "stole" my upgrade. The one that has me flying the same 737, in the same base that I was in in 2000. That is about like an east guy telling a west guy they stole his seniority.

 

[cactusboy53]

Yes, just a pay proposal, nothing huge like crew meals! Come on guys, when the Kirby proposal came in it shows how far apart we were. For all of USAPA's faults, I think they are doing the contract properly. I'm in no hurry to give up my capt. seat for another lousy contract, I'll just stay with the lousy contract I have until there is a really good one on the table.

It wouldn't have mattered if the east did tell you to suck it up, there would have been nothing we could have done about it until we had a joint contract, just like now.

It cracks me up when I hear how I "stole" my upgrade. The one that has me flying the same 737, in the same base that I was in in 2000. That is about like an east guy telling a west guy they stole his seniority.

Pi;
Once again you have forgotten that not one but TWO parties testified (a negotiating team member AND a company spokesperson) that they thought the end result would be a AWA-like contract with VAST improvements to the existing AWA scheduling section (not too bad at this time) and the Kirby money proposal (+3%) and up to an additional 7-8% when voted in. That means a 10-11% increase for the AWA pilot group. That would move me up personally to $99 an hour (9, going on 10 year employee). That would put a senior AWA captain at just under $160.00 per hour.

Also, don't forget the value of the maximum vactation, 100% pay for mechanical & deadheads, to name just a few other improvements vs. LOA 93.

This nonsense has gone on long enough. The problem is the courts will determine the path. If history has demonstrated the paths direction, damages will be on the docket this summer. The east body may have chosen to allow USAPA to drive the bus, but that decision may likely cost them a huge penalty. Everyone else gets it.......except one party. I really have to wonder why?

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

When I was hired at PI upgrade was running about 2 1/2 years. Things change. Are there any west pilots that haven't upgraded in 7 years or less?

Yes, the most senior fos who have never held a captain award are at about the 12 years of service mark. If not there already, they will be very soon.

Even with the bankruptcy, previously the longest time to an upgrade was maybe 9 years, roughly.

 

[luvn737s]

I think they are doing the contract properly. I'm in no hurry to give up my capt. seat for another lousy contract, I'll just stay with the lousy contract I have until there is a really good one on the table.

Do you understand that there will never be a "really good one" on the table? You will only be able to look back over the course of many years (hopefully) and see how much progress was made. But you won't see it in one contract.

But if you understand that, yet choose to avoid a contract because by doing so, you reap advantages you otherwise wouldn't, can't you see where folks (including a Federal Judge) would feel that is merely a way of circumventing an arbitrated award? Wouldn't that same judge see the need to remedy such behavior on the part of a union that is chartered to serve the interests of ALL US pilots when that behavior harms the west pilots?

You have the right to vote NO, but the east east has no right to conspire with USAPA to prevent a vote.

 

[cleardirect]

This is intended as a serious question.

Why is Seham practically begging some judge, either Wake or the 9th, to refer Seham & Co. for review by the bar association? Since when does an attorney with a case already under submission than ask the appeals court to become a fact court, totally bypassing the trial court, which had specifically retained jurisdiction of the injunction?

My question is totally serious. This is ridiculous behavior.

Maybe Seham is looking for sanctions. That way during the damages and legal fees they can cry about a biased judge and demand a different judge or change of venue again.


Perhaps Seham knows that this will be his last client ever because of the way he has failed so badly. Use the excuse that he did everything he could but got disbarred. To bad he will take the rest of his lawyers with him. He might be trying to avoid a malpractice suit from usapa for selling them a bad theory.

Perhaps his firm is so far away from their normal little area of law that they have NO idea what they are doing now.

Or maybe he is just running the bill in a last minute frenzy. Knowing that the ninth is not the place for this, he gets a little slap then files with the district court and bills usapa again.

Anyone think that if there is a merger Seham will be the surviving lawyer? Nope the golden goose is going to die.

 

[Pi brat]

Pi;
Once again you have forgotten that not one but TWO parties testified (a negotiating team member AND a company spokesperson) that they thought the end result would be a AWA-like contract with VAST improvements to the existing AWA scheduling section (not too bad at this time) and the Kirby money proposal (+3%) and up to an additional 7-8% when voted in. That means a 10-11% increase for the AWA pilot group. That would move me up personally to $99 an hour (9, going on 10 year employee). That would put a senior AWA captain at just under $160.00 per hour.

Also, don't forget the value of the maximum vactation, 100% pay for mechanical & deadheads, to name just a few other improvements vs. LOA 93.

This nonsense has gone on long enough. The problem is the courts will determine the path. If history has demonstrated the paths direction, damages will be on the docket this summer. The east body may have chosen to allow USAPA to drive the bus, but that decision may likely cost them a huge penalty. Everyone else gets it.......except one party. I really have to wonder why?

But who testified that it would have passed? They testified what might have been, but it never hit the table. We will never know because we never got there. We could argue until the cows come home about why, or how, but absent a vote we will never know what would have been, and without a contract we have no single seniority list, and without a single seniority list................separate ops.

All you westies just answer this: Did the TA allow for separate votes on a joint contract that effectively gave EACH side veto power? Yes or No please. No woulda, shoulda, coulda.

 

[Barrister]

No by reneg, I mean tries to get out of having to comply with its contractual obligations. usapa's entire premise was that a union can negotiate all sections of the contract. While that is true, the TA has specific language of how section 22 would be determined, and it had already been accomplished. usapa's premise is they can ignore the TA, and determine whatever they feel is appropriate. That is they feel they can renege on the portion of theTA governing seniority integration. A contractually mandated system, that was already finished.

If the Nic stapled the west ( in no way does that imply the opposite happened, because the east was most certainly not stapled, and very far from it) the west most likely would not have ratified a joint contract. How that differs from what usapa is trying to do is that would have been in compliance with the TA, not in spite of it. The east had the same power, right up until they voted usapa in and tried to force single ratification to use their numbers not only to change the arbitrated list, but to also force a ratified contract.

usapa is trying to steal what the entire group has, a fair and equitable list reached at by predetermined contractual agreement, and replace it with what they unilaterally think is fair.

Wherever you are now you best get comfortable. I told you that a while ago....One question...willyou vote for any contract without a min fleet count where it is today and no less, if not how long before Parker downsizes PHX.....Oh yea, I remember now...it won't matter cause you got NIC.......NOT.

Don'tcount your Nickins before they hatch.

VNIIMN
NPJB