Work On Nwa Jets?

[PlayTheOdds]

If people would just stop responding to him, he'd go away...

Are you slumming again Former ModerAAtor? What is your obsession with slumming? Have you had a chat with Princess lately?

 

[PlayTheOdds]

PTO,

What is your constant need for debate about? It's not like you will ever convince anybody here or anywhere else that you are right or justified. In reading your posts, you would probably be more happy in management - you seem to relate better to that system. B)

You are right about not convincing any of these brainwashed fools of anything. What about the number of Guests that visit these boards though? I can at least show them how delusional these union die-hards are. Former ModerAAtor thinks putting me on his ignore list is the answer but that still makes them look just as foolish because then the Guest will be reading posts that go unchallenged so they have to fill in the blanks with their imagination which in my opinion is much better than anything the unionized suckers can come up with.

 

[777 fixer]

"You are taking about very large and complex plan. One that would require restructuring the entire HR department and turn it into an almost separate entity from the company. Right now HR and management hold hands every day and sleep together every night. That is not the way it was designed nor should be. The department would act as a buffer or mediator if you will between management and the labor force. Also it would control who advances to management through a board or committee where an individual would be reviewed by other department heads. This would operate much along the lines of military boards that soldiers must go through to advance through the ranks. There are actually already systems out there in place they just need to be adapted to what fits your needs."

A large and complex plan that you give very little information on. Even if you were to go about "restructuring the entire HR dept and turn it into an almost seperate entity from the company" the key word here is "almost". That means it would still be apart of the company and under the control of the company. In other words you utopian plan would never get off the ground. Now I guess you could tell me that maybe the HR issues would have to be handled by a third party. That would never happen becasue no airline would ever give up control of their HR dept. Please tell me what folks in the HR department would know about who should be advanced and who should not? To answer my own question they don't.

By the way have you ever been in the military? You seem to have this idealized view of the promotion process of the military. I spent four years in the NAvy and like the civlian world I saw my fair share of people who should not have been in charge of a paint locker.

"Are they really effective in preventing this though? What has recall rights done for the senior mechanics in this strike with Northwest? From my understanding the list of guys wanting to crossover is well up into the upper hundreds. NWA was noted for its aging work force and the guys that are crossing do not fall into the senior category. Either the senior guys simply do not wish to come back or their union seniority has failed them. I do not know which but if I had to put money on it I would bet on the later."

I'm not talking about the situation at NWA now am I? You did nothing to explain what you view as "outlandish recall rights".

"That is a really sweet scenario you conjured up. There is one tiny detail that you are missing that blows the whole thing to hell and back. It was a non-union shop."

I still don't think I'm that far off the mark. Were you a union member at an MRO? If so then I have a feeling I'm right on the money. You have been a member of a union have you not?

 

[PlayTheOdds]

A large and complex plan that you give very little information on. Even if you were to go about "restructuring the entire HR dept and turn it into an almost seperate entity from the company" the key word here is "almost". That means it would still be apart of the company and under the control of the company. In other words you utopian plan would never get off the ground. Now I guess you could tell me that maybe the HR issues would have to be handled by a third party. That would never happen becasue no airline would ever give up control of their HR dept. Please tell me what folks in the HR department would know about who should be advanced and who should not? To answer my own question they don't.

I gave some simple basics, which I believe is more than sufficient to answer your question. Third party is indeed out of the question and I would never recommend it. They know nothing of who should or shouldn't be advanced which is the way it should be. You are correct about it still being part of the company as it should be. The attachment to the company will be at the upper levels where they don't know what is going on on the floor anyway so it will be a non-contender.

By the way have you ever been in the military? You seem to have this idealized view of the promotion process of the military. I spent four years in the NAvy and like the civlian world I saw my fair share of people who should not have been in charge of a paint locker.

Yes I have been in the military and I must agree with your "paint locker" scenario. I didn't say it was 100%, any system can be improved on. I am simply making suggestions that could possibly replace the existing systems that are obviously not working.

I'm not talking about the situation at NWA now am I? You did nothing to explain what you view as "outlandish recall rights".

I thought that had been settled. You said yourself that the current system will put the undeserving above the most deserving.

I still don't think I'm that far off the mark. Were you a union member at an MRO? If so then I have a feeling I'm right on the money. You have been a member of a union have you not?

No, I have never been a union member. I have contracted at a few union shops that were most unpleasant experiences. I also have a few friends that belong to unions. There are a couple that are not effected about being in a union but a few of them abuse the company through the union, especially one in particular.

 

[777 fixer]

"I gave some simple basics, which I believe is more than sufficient to answer your question. Third party is indeed out of the question and I would never recommend it. They know nothing of who should or shouldn't be advanced which is the way it should be. You are correct about it still being part of the company as it should be. The attachment to the company will be at the upper levels where they don't know what is going on on the floor anyway so it will be a non-contender."


All you really did was give some vague pie in the sky explanation. Your statement about HR having an "attachment to the company will be at the upper levels where they don't know what is going on on the floor anyway so it will be a non-contender" makes no sense what so ever. Seems a recipe for trouble if the HR department is totally clueless as to what's going on. Afterall is it not important for a company to have good communication in both directions. If one part has no idea what's going on that means there's been a breakdown in communication.

"I thought that had been settled. You said yourself that the current system will put the undeserving above the most deserving."

No I did'nt. I belive what I did was answer your question on who would be recalled first. Your logic when you say "the current system will put the undeserving above the most deserving" is a bit flawed. Who says that the "undeserving" will always be ahead of the "deserving" in the current system. It can easily work the other way as well. Say a company lays off everyone with five or less years. Let's say employee X has five years, is a good worker, shows up on time, fully qualified and is a all around asset to the company. Employee Y has four, does the bare minimum of work, calls in sick constantly, has issues with co-workers and is an all around pain in the ass. Who's gets recalled first? Employee X, so as you can see it can work the other way as well.

"No, I have never been a union member. I have contracted at a few union shops that were most unpleasant experiences. I also have a few friends that belong to unions. There are a couple that are not effected about being in a union but a few of them abuse the company through the union, especially one in particular."

Let me get this straight. You have never been a union member, have had contact with unions only on a second hand basis and have a freind who "abuses" the "company" through the "union". Seems to me that you are basing your beliefs about unions on incomplete information or what you have heard from other people. Yet you seem to believe that everthing would be hunky doory if we could only get rid of unions and install some sort of utopian ideal you seem to believe in. Basically you try and portray yourself as some sort of expert yet in reality have no idea what your talkinga bout do you?

 

[PlayTheOdds]

All you really did was give some vague pie in the sky explanation. Your statement about HR having an "attachment to the company will be at the upper levels where they don't know what is going on on the floor anyway so it will be a non-contender" makes no sense what so ever. Seems a recipe for trouble if the HR department is totally clueless as to what's going on. Afterall is it not important for a company to have good communication in both directions. If one part has no idea what's going on that means there's been a breakdown in communication.

You missed the whole point. HR’s responsibility is to the employee not the work being performed on the floor. The idea is to keep management and HR from sleeping together and I do literally mean sleeping together. If HR is going to only do managements bidding then they are a worthless department and should be outsourced, which is what they are today;worthless. So yes indeed HR should be clueless as to what is gong on on the floor so that they can have an unbiased attitude for arising problems without some manager walking next door and whispering sweet nothings in their ear.

No I did'nt. I belive what I did was answer your question on who would be recalled first. Your logic when you say "the current system will put the undeserving above the most deserving" is a bit flawed. Who says that the "undeserving" will always be ahead of the "deserving" in the current system. It can easily work the other way as well. Say a company lays off everyone with five or less years. Let's say employee X has five years, is a good worker, shows up on time, fully qualified and is a all around asset to the company. Employee Y has four, does the bare minimum of work, calls in sick constantly, has issues with co-workers and is an all around pain in the ass. Who's gets recalled first? Employee X, so as you can see it can work the other way as well.

I will grant you that, but it still shows that the system is extremely inefficient and flawed. I for one certainly wouldn’t want my employment based on a number. The entire system simply promotes inefficiency.

Let me get this straight. You have never been a union member, have had contact with unions only on a second hand basis and have a freind who "abuses" the "company" through the "union". Seems to me that you are basing your beliefs about unions on incomplete information or what you have heard from other people. Yet you seem to believe that everthing would be hunky doory if we could only get rid of unions and install some sort of utopian ideal you seem to believe in. Basically you try and portray yourself as some sort of expert yet in reality have no idea what your talkinga bout do you?


Do not confuse my inexperience with ignorance. I saw the suicidal lunacy of a NWA strike before it even happened. That puts me well ahead of thousands of so called experienced unionists. I consider myself a relatively intelligent person, if I were you I wouldn’t be so quick to discredit me. After all I did shake Bob Roses hand and sat amongst your peers and had a few laughs with them at that. I was told by my co-workers that there was no way that I could go in there without someone knowing who I was. I was told that I would never fit in. Well I pulled that one off with flying colors. I even knew the proper lingo to use and have never sat face to face with a true die-hard unionist. You guys are absolutely clueless as to who or what your enemy is.

 

[777 fixer]

"You missed the whole point. HR’s responsibility is to the employee not the work being performed on the floor. The idea is to keep management and HR from sleeping together and I do literally mean sleeping together. If HR is going to only do managements bidding then they are a worthless department and should be outsourced, which is what they are today;worthless. So yes indeed HR should be clueless as to what is gong on on the floor so that they can have an unbiased attitude for arising problems without some manager walking next door and whispering sweet nothings in their ear."

I see your still living in a fantasy world were an HR department makes decisons independently. Your staemtne about keeping HR and management from "sleeping together" makes absolutely no sense what so ever. HR is a part of the management structure! How in the world are you going to keep "management" from having influence over HR? You can't, because as I already pointed out there a part of it! As I said before no airline is going to "outsource their HR department.

"I will grant you that, but it still shows that the system is extremely inefficient and flawed. I for one certainly wouldn’t want my employment based on a number. The entire system simply promotes inefficiency"

Yet you have not given an ideas on asystem that would somehow be more "efficent" and less prone to "abuse" than the current one. I have a feeling your view on not wanting your employment based on a number might change if you lost your job becasue you were to "old" or someone else was a better brown noser than you.

"Do not confuse my inexperience with ignorance. I saw the suicidal lunacy of a NWA strike before it even happened. That puts me well ahead of thousands of so called experienced unionists. I consider myself a relatively intelligent person, if I were you I wouldn’t be so quick to discredit me. After all I did shake Bob Roses hand and sat amongst your peers and had a few laughs with them at that. I was told by my co-workers that there was no way that I could go in there without someone knowing who I was. I was told that I would never fit in. Well I pulled that one off with flying colors. I even knew the proper lingo to use and have never sat face to face with a true die-hard unionist. You guys are absolutely clueless as to who or what your enemy is."

It is ignornace I hate to say. I fail to see how having some freinds who are union members and your own second hand experinces with them makes your some sort of authority on unions. Just becasue I happen to know a couple pilots personally, work around them and can talk the "lingo" does'nt mean I know anything about flying.

The AMFA represented folks at NWA had half their members on layoff. The company comes to them and says we want to layoff the remaining half. Yet people call them suicidal. Well if they were suicidal it's partly due to the fact because there are people like you. If only half the people that NWA needed when they put out the call for replacemnt workers showed I bet things might have gone a bit diferently. Maybe NWA might have taken a less hard nosed approuch. But we will never know now will we.

Stop patting yourself on the back like you accomplished something by being hired by NWA. Soory but you did not. You were hired by a company that was looking to hire people as quickly as possible. Then they could go back to the union and say they have people lined up for their jobs. So don't try and puff out your chest by saying you got hired even though you did'nt know anybody on the insdie. Afterall, it's not like if did know someone on the shop floor management would have gone to that person and asked their opinion of you.

As I said before anyone who takes a job with a/c maint at NWA is either stupid or desperate.

 

[Wretched Wrench]

The idea is to keep management and HR from sleeping together and I do literally mean sleeping together.

Golly, you mean that goes on at other stations, too?

 

[PlayTheOdds]

Golly, you mean that goes on at other stations, too?

It goes on everywhere and is a cancer that needs to be eradicated. This is a major problem with company and labor issues.

 

[PlayTheOdds]

I see your still living in a fantasy world were an HR department makes decisons independently. Your staemtne about keeping HR and management from "sleeping together" makes absolutely no sense what so ever. HR is a part of the management structure! How in the world are you going to keep "management" from having influence over HR? You can't, because as I already pointed out there a part of it! As I said before no airline is going to "outsource their HR department.

I fully understand that management and HR are part of each other. That is the whole problem. That is why I said, "Restructure the whole HR department." It should be an almost separate entity from the company. Attached only at the upper management levels. What I mean by the upper levels is the CEO, VP and President, or however the structure is set up. The termination of an employee will not be based on one person walking over to his main-squeeze in HR and saying, "I want DEAD BIRD fired." Then the next thing you know there goes DEAD BIRD rolling his box out of the hangar. It doesn't need to be outsourced just secluded.

Yet you have not given an ideas on asystem that would somehow be more "efficent" and less prone to "abuse" than the current one. I have a feeling your view on not wanting your employment based on a number might change if you lost your job becasue you were to "old" or someone else was a better brown noser than you.

Anyone that has been recommended for termination would have a opportunity to plead their case before a board or a committee if you will. This committee will be comprised of (for example) two people from the same level as the person being terminated. Two supervisors/managers from different departments of the person being terminated. Two people whose names were drawn from a hat. HR will over see the board. If there is a tie the HR department sends the results up the ladder were a decision is made at a level that there is no emotional attachment. That is the basic idea and I am sure would need tuning if ever put into practice.

It is ignornace I hate to say. I fail to see how having some freinds who are union members and your own second hand experinces with them makes your some sort of authority on unions. Just becasue I happen to know a couple pilots personally, work around them and can talk the "lingo" does'nt mean I know anything about flying.

You underestimate me 777 fixer, just as AMFA underestimated, "a handful of scabs with a few months of training."

The AMFA represented folks at NWA had half their members on layoff. The company comes to them and says we want to layoff the remaining half. Yet people call them suicidal. Well if they were suicidal it's partly due to the fact because there are people like you. If only half the people that NWA needed when they put out the call for replacemnt workers showed I bet things might have gone a bit diferently. Maybe NWA might have taken a less hard nosed approuch. But we will never know now will we.

Within the first month of the strike we lost almost half our numbers. Now had only half our numbers showed up to begin with then we lost another half, yes NWA would have had tremendous problems. Welcome to the real world though.

Stop patting yourself on the back like you accomplished something by being hired by NWA. Soory but you did not. You were hired by a company that was looking to hire people as quickly as possible. Then they could go back to the union and say they have people lined up for their jobs. So don't try and puff out your chest by saying you got hired even though you did'nt know anybody on the insdie. Afterall, it's not like if did know someone on the shop floor management would have gone to that person and asked their opinion of you.

I am not patting myself on the back. I'm simply counting my blessings.

As I said before anyone who takes a job with a/c maint at NWA is either stupid or desperate.

I am certain you are wrong, they simply understand the alternatives. They have not lived sheltered careers as you guys have or they had and their unions failed them and they learned the hard way.

 

[777 fixer]

"I fully understand that management and HR are part of each other. That is the whole problem. That is why I said, "Restructure the whole HR department." It should be an almost separate entity from the company. Attached only at the upper management levels. What I mean by the upper levels is the CEO, VP and President, or however the structure is set up. The termination of an employee will not be based on one person walking over to his main-squeeze in HR and saying, "I want DEAD BIRD fired." Then the next thing you know there goes DEAD BIRD rolling his box out of the hangar. It doesn't need to be outsourced just secluded."

It's obvious you still live in a fantasy world where HR will be totally objective and not influenced by management. Who's going to handle the day to day HR issues from the executive suite to the shop floor? If your answer is HR then how can you expect then to be "secluded" from the rest of the company. Simple answer is you cannot. Therefore your idea of having an HR department that is "secluded" and a "sepereate entity" that's not influenced by management is just a utopian dream.

"Anyone that has been recommended for termination would have a opportunity to plead their case before a board or a committee if you will. This committee will be comprised of (for example) two people from the same level as the person being terminated. Two supervisors/managers from different departments of the person being terminated. Two people whose names were drawn from a hat. HR will over see the board. If there is a tie the HR department sends the results up the ladder were a decision is made at a level that there is no emotional attachment. That is the basic idea and I am sure would need tuning if ever put into practice."

More fantasy world non-sense on your part. Let me get this straight. Say the company wanted to fire AMT Joe Smith. You would have two of his fellow AMT's sitting on this board and two supervisors/managers randomly picked from other departments. Tell you what as an AMT how "objective" do you think I'm going to be about the career of someone who might be a freind? How objective do you think a supervisor or manager is going to be when the management of another departement wants somoen fired. Here's what you will have. A two two tie every time with management deciding the outcome.

"You underestimate me 777 fixer, just as AMFA underestimated, "a handful of scabs with a few months of training."

Please stop patting yourself on the back. It's not like you guys are perfroming the same jobs NWA AMT's were four years ago.

"Within the first month of the strike we lost almost half our numbers. Now had only half our numbers showed up to begin with then we lost another half, yes NWA would have had tremendous problems. Welcome to the real world though."

The fact that half your number bailed should tell you something. By the way I noticed you did not address the issue of NWA being able to do what they did becasuse people were willing to be "replacement workers".

"I am certain you are wrong, they simply understand the alternatives. They have not lived sheltered careers as you guys have or they had and their unions failed them and they learned the hard way."

Soory but I am quite correct. Afterall if you and your fellow "replacement workers" were so clever why could'nt you get a job with a company that even before the strike was obviously heading towards BK? Or a comapny that treats it's employees as an asset and not a liablity. If you truly understood the "alternatives" then someone as "intelligent" as yourself should have realized there were alternatives to NWA.

By the way you're living in a sheltered world as well if you think that NWA won't go gunning for you. You are kidding yourself if you think your pay and benefits will remain untouched at the rate Northwest is burning through cash.

 

[PlayTheOdds]

It's obvious you still live in a fantasy world where HR will be totally objective and not influenced by management. Who's going to handle the day to day HR issues from the executive suite to the shop floor? If your answer is HR then how can you expect then to be "secluded" from the rest of the company. Simple answer is you cannot. Therefore your idea of having an HR department that is "secluded" and a "sepereate entity" that's not influenced by management is just a utopian dream.

You asked for an alternative, I gave you one, one that would work whether you think so or not. Do you have a better alternative? If so lets hear it. There is one thing I can say for sure, the one that you praise so much is a total failure.

More fantasy world non-sense on your part. Let me get this straight. Say the company wanted to fire AMT Joe Smith. You would have two of his fellow AMT's sitting on this board and two supervisors/managers randomly picked from other departments. Tell you what as an AMT how "objective" do you think I'm going to be about the career of someone who might be a freind? How objective do you think a supervisor or manager is going to be when the management of another departement wants somoen fired. Here's what you will have. A two two tie every time with management deciding the outcome.

Yes, the fellow AMT would be objective. If I were on the job and had to carry another’s weight I would get rid of him if given the opportunity. I have worked with guys that I liked to hangout with very much, but it was very frustrating when I had to work on jobs with them. If a manager cannot be objective then his employment will be next in line.

Please stop patting yourself on the back. It's not like you guys are perfroming the same jobs NWA AMT's were four years ago.

Please, please give me a break. First we couldn't do the job. Then we couldn't do the job right. Then we couldn't do the job with out management. Now if it were four years ago we couldn't do the job. Petty, petty, petty.

The fact that half your number bailed should tell you something. By the way I noticed you did not address the issue of NWA being able to do what they did becasuse people were willing to be "replacement workers".

People are willing to be "Replacement Workers" because there aren't many good paying jobs out there. If someone is foolish enough to swing a door wide open for a job that is normally a closed shop there are people that will take advantage of such a situation. Especially one as gravy as this one is. Before you start screaming "ethics" and "character" keep in mind that the aviation industry is a national/global industry and aircraft are very much transportable. There are literally thousands of cultures that could careless what you think. Some bailed because they didn't want to cross the picket line, most bailed because they were afraid.

Soory but I am quite correct. Afterall if you and your fellow "replacement workers" were so clever why could'nt you get a job with a company that even before the strike was obviously heading towards BK? Or a comapny that treats it's employees as an asset and not a liablity. If you truly understood the "alternatives" then someone as "intelligent" as yourself should have realized there were alternatives to NWA.

There are very few companies that I contracted for that did not offer me a full time permanent position. I liked things just the way they were. I am going to have a hard time adjusting to this job. I enjoy taking November, December and January off along with a few weeks or a month or so during the summer. Contracting is not a job I was forced to do it is a job I chose to do. The only reason I went direct here is the flight benefits, if this non-rev thing doesn't work out for me I will pull the plug on this job with no qualms at all.

By the way you're living in a sheltered world as well if you think that NWA won't go gunning for you. You are kidding yourself if you think your pay and benefits will remain untouched at the rate Northwest is burning through cash.

This might be so. I do not think that it will happen but I assure you that if they do it will be my decision and mine alone whether I choose to stay or not.

 

[PlayTheOdds]

So has any AA AMT's performed any Scab work or not?

 

[777 fixer]

"You asked for an alternative, I gave you one, one that would work whether you think so or not. Do you have a better alternative? If so lets hear it. There is one thing I can say for sure, the one that you praise so much is a total failure."

What you gave me was one of your utopian ideals that would never work in the real world the way you think it would. Want to know my alternative. I think I'll stick with the current system. If I get myself in a bind I'll take my chances with the union rep at my side and not sitting there by my lonesome. And if the company cans me I'll take it to arbitraation.

Yes, the fellow AMT would be objective. If I were on the job and had to carry another’s weight I would get rid of him if given the opportunity. I have worked with guys that I liked to hangout with very much, but it was very frustrating when I had to work on jobs with them. If a manager cannot be objective then his employment will be next in line.

That's one of the most ridiculous statemnts you have made so far. It seems you are projecting your ideals and standards on others. Can you honeslty tell me that every AMT in this position is going to be 100% obective 100% of the time. No you cannot.

So let me get this straight. A co-worker of yours that you like on a personal level and hangout with but is a dead wieght. The company decides to get rid of him. You're the deciding vote and you vote for termination? Now you get to expalin to your freind why you voted against him. Then you get to explain to his other freinds why you did it. Then you get to work with those same guys. Please don't tell me that they will be objective. Anytime personal relationships and emotions are involved objectivity goes out the window.

Your comment on managers employment being the next in line was a bit off. Here's what a manager from another dept is going to think. "The managers at M&E want someone gone and there must be a reason for it. So I'll just go with the program." By the way who would make the decision to get rid of a manager becasue they were not "objective" in voting to get rid of somebody? Management of the company? That makes no sense what so ever.

"Please, please give me a break. First we couldn't do the job. Then we couldn't do the job right. Then we couldn't do the job with out management. Now if it were four years ago we couldn't do the job. Petty, petty, petty."

Are you guys doing heavy maintenance? Engine overhaul, tank work, component overhaul etc, etc?

"People are willing to be "Replacement Workers" because there aren't many good paying jobs out there. If someone is foolish enough to swing a door wide open for a job that is normally a closed shop there are people that will take advantage of such a situation. Especially one as gravy as this one is. Before you start screaming "ethics" and "character" keep in mind that the aviation industry is a national/global industry and aircraft are very much transportable. There are literally thousands of cultures that could careless what you think. Some bailed because they didn't want to cross the picket line, most bailed because they were afraid."

Then why are we hearing stories of AMT's getting out of the industry and making about the same amount of money they were before or even more. I know a guy who worked for UAL at IND who now works for Otis elevator making more money than he was before. Why could'nt these "replacement workers" get a job with say UPS or SWA?

Do you know what a "closed shop" is? It's obvious that you do not. A closed shop is where you have to join the union before you can get a job. In the airline industry you get the job then you join the union. You are trying to make it sound like under normal cicumstances it would have been impossible to get a job working for an airline. I don't know, maybe some of the "replacement workers" at NWA would not have been able to get a job in the indsutry. Maybe they did'nt have the necessary expereince or had something in their backgound that would have made them an unattractive canidate.

"This might be so. I do not think that it will happen but I assure you that if they do it will be my decision and mine alone whether I choose to stay or not."

If you leave then what?

 

[PlayTheOdds]

What you gave me was one of your utopian ideals that would never work in the real world the way you think it would. Want to know my alternative. I think I'll stick with the current system. If I get myself in a bind I'll take my chances with the union rep at my side and not sitting there by my lonesome. And if the company cans me I'll take it to arbitraation.

That is simply your biased opinion. What are you going to do when your union is also busted?

That's one of the most ridiculous statemnts you have made so far. It seems you are projecting your ideals and standards on others. Can you honeslty tell me that every AMT in this position is going to be 100% obective 100% of the time. No you cannot.

I am projecting nothing, if someone chooses to carry their dead weight around so be it. I think you would be surprised how subjective some people can be?

So let me get this straight. A co-worker of yours that you like on a personal level and hangout with but is a dead wieght. The company decides to get rid of him. You're the deciding vote and you vote for termination? Now you get to expalin to your freind why you voted against him. Then you get to explain to his other freinds why you did it. Then you get to work with those same guys. Please don't tell me that they will be objective. Anytime personal relationships and emotions are involved objectivity goes out the window.

I do not go to work to win a popularity contest. It is a job, simple as that. I could care less what anyone thinks of me.

Your comment on managers employment being the next in line was a bit off. Here's what a manager from another dept is going to think. "The managers at M&E want someone gone and there must be a reason for it. So I'll just go with the program." By the way who would make the decision to get rid of a manager becasue they were not "objective" in voting to get rid of somebody? Management of the company? That makes no sense what so ever.

There is that possibility, Human factors will be played thats just human nature. These issues will have to be dealt with on an individual basis.

Of course it does, it shows character and dedication. This can be used as a tool for upper management to use for further employee advancements.


Are you guys doing heavy maintenance? Engine overhaul, tank work, component overhaul etc, etc?

Not here, but that is all I have ever done. Seat tracks and bulkheads are my specialty. I have done many tank jobs but stay away from them as much as possible.

Then why are we hearing stories of AMT's getting out of the industry and making about the same amount of money they were before or even more. I know a guy who worked for UAL at IND who now works for Otis elevator making more money than he was before. Why could’nt these "replacement workers" get a job with say UPS or SWA?

I am sure some are landing good jobs but I am also sure it does not demonstrate the majority.

I don't know. I never tried, I am a contractor and very comfortable with it. I am already leery of my decision of going direct. I will give it a chance though for this is really a good job. I'm just not sure if this job will fit my lifestyle. I like taking off when I want and working when I want. The number one reason I went direct was because of the flight benefits, if they do not work out for me I will not think twice about rolling my box. The pay is not what attracted me to this job for I would be making the same at any contract paying twenty-two an hour.

Do you know what a "closed shop" is? It's obvious that you do not. A closed shop is where you have to join the union before you can get a job. In the airline industry you get the job then you join the union. You are trying to make it sound like under normal cicumstances it would have been impossible to get a job working for an airline. I don't know, maybe some of the "replacement workers" at NWA would not have been able to get a job in the indsutry. Maybe they did'nt have the necessary expereince or had something in their backgound that would have made them an unattractive canidate.

Recall rights makes any company a closed shop, you're just playing with words.

If you leave then what?


I go get another job. Why do you guys make things so difficult?