Work On Nwa Jets?

[TWU informer]

Guess you need time to come up with a coherent response, I understand.

That would take more than days no doubt.

He has resorted to one-liners and incoherent responses.

 

[PlayTheOdds]

What do you mean "advancement"? Advancement to what? Advancement to a higher position? "Advancement" being keeping your job?

All of the above. Advancement through out the company. Let the company select the best man for the job. A little competition is good for the soul. How frustrating do you think it is for a guy that is ten times the employee of a senior employee and doesn't even get considered for an open position because he was hired two days after the other guy. Why even bother trying to excel in the industry when all you have to do is sit around and hope everyone above you either quits or dies.

You throw out all these ideas yet I suspect if I press you for more details your not going to be able to give me much information. Lets look at attendance. In case you did'nt know attendance, or lack there of, will get you fired quicker than anything in the airline industry. So why you brought it up I have no idea.

Lets say an employee has poor attendance and the company fires him, then the employee files a grievance with the union saying that he hasn't been going to work because he feels intimidated by his supervisor. When actually he just enjoys hanging out with his buddies rather than showing up for work. How long is it now going to take and how much is it going to cost the company to get rid of this employee? If the arbitrator sides with the union then the company is really screwed.



Personality, a completly subjective bench mark if I do say so myself. One that is open to abuse. Some would interpret "personality" as having the ability to kiss the largest amount of butt. I've known guys that can be difficult to get along with and can be a real pain. However these same guys are outstanding mechanics. On the flip side I've know guys who are "the life of the party" who are completly useless as mechancis.

You are correct about the subjectivness of someone’s personality yet they can all fall into some type of category. Thus providing the company a way of placing people in key positions that require certain types of personalities rather than the next guy on the list.

Please tell me what you mean buy "natural leadership".

There are certain people that you can throw into any type of situation and they will take charge of it and make what ever it is happen that needs to happen whether they have any clue as to what they are dong or not. For some reason people look up to them and do as they say with out much thought about it. It is very uncanny. These individuals are very rare but I am sure you know what I am talking about. These individuals should not be retarded by seniority.


Of course you can't because none exists. You say you're stating the "obvious" in regards to the recall system keeping people away from this profession yet offer nothing to back this up. Even in good times whan the airlines are hiring it's still going to take some kid out of A&P school a long time to get hired by an airline. It's an "obvious" fact that the airlines are going to want someone with some sort of heavy jet expereince.

Is it so obvious? This might hold true in most instances however I mostly pull for the underdog. You guys don't give him a chance.

Now lets say the recall system was done away with which means if you get laid off you have to start from scratch. Someone like me puts in an application to be rehired by the airline that laid me off. Then some kid with maybe two or three years working at an FBO puts in an application for the same postition. Who do you think they are going to hire? Someone with 10+ years experince or the kid from the FBO.

More than likely you. The fact though that the kids was even looked at and considered speaks volumes. You never know when the guy reading the resumes just might say, "What the hell I am going to give this kid a shot. We need some new blood here anyway."

As I said before what's keeping people away from this profession is the fact that in the past five years four major airlines have files chapter 11. Then there's the fact that airlines are sending AMT jobs overseas. Then of course there's the very nature of the airline industry. Working weekends, holidays, nights and inclement weather. Don't forget the starting wages at places where a lot of AMT's get their start suck.

You are segregating the airline industry from the aviation industry as if it was an industry all by itself, which is not the case. If you work for a defense contractor you all but keep banker hours. If you work for an MRO chances are you will be off for the holidays whether you want to be or not. Most air carriers want their aircraft in service at the time of holidays not sitting in some hangar.

Oh by the way I got a chuckle when you said "a liar or a fool".
"Yes I have. I might be new to the Airline side of it but there is a lot more to the industry than this"
Working for an FBO, corporate flight department or a manufactuer is not the same as working for an airline. So you're experince with them is irrelevant.

Irrelevant? I think that is a tad on the arrogant side wouldn't you say. I do not think they are as different as you would like to make them. I always thought I had it made working at MRO's. I didn't think there was a gravier job until I came here. OH, how wrong I was.

 

[eolesen]

Just add him to your "IGNORE" file already...

 

[Wretched Wrench]

Just add him to your "IGNORE" file already...

You know I don't agree with all of those who post here. But this guy is the only one on my ignore list. I learn from the rest of you.

 

[Bagbelt]

You seem to know all about unions, if you worked in this business you would know most of what you said is ridiculous. About the easiest thing to fire someone and stay fired is poor attendance. And as far as advancement, I don't care if you are the smartest wrench and greatest person there is, someone allways won't like you. And when you are talking about an employee group with tens of thousands of employees, there has to be set rules. That goes for non-union shops I've worked too, I've never seen a non-union shop that didn't apply seniority rules.

 

[PlayTheOdds]

I have never seen a non-union shop base an employee’s entire career on seniority either. I have never seen a non-union shop lock out thousands of potential employees because of recall rights either. I have never seen a non-union shop allow a man to leave work after a few hours for ten years and retain his job either. I have never seen a non-union shop give a mechanic one card to work then not give him another after the first was done in an hour.

Yes non-union shops do use seniority but they don't allow it to dictate everything.

You are correct about personal conflicts in non-union shops but that’s just life and there are ways of dealing with it. There is also the buddy system that gets out of hand. I didn't say it was perfect, it’s just better than what unions have to offer.

Former Moderator, join the fun, lets take a ride. Otherwise keep your ignore list active. I am sure you know where I post at so if you find me that repulsive stay away and quit coming here to get you fill of slumming. Do you and Princess hang out together? If so tell her I am still waiting on that hamburger.

Of course you can't learn from me Wretched Wrench I am on your ignore list, but if I were on your ignore list how would you know you couldn't learn from me? Are you slumming too? I'll bet you three sit at Starbucks with your mochas gossiping about me. Get a life people and leave me out of it.

 

[Bagbelt]

I have never heard of any outfit that didn't call back guys who were cut by seniority. If it were legal all a co. would have to do is lay everyone off as soon as they moved up the pay scale or got old or sick and start over. The legal hassle alone would bury whatever cost benefit there would be as well as make it unlikely anyone would desire the job in the first place. By the way, it's practices like that that made unions as powerful as they were in the past, something I don't think smart mgmt. would push for.

 

[PlayTheOdds]

It is very much apparent you have never worked in a non-union shop.

 

[777 fixer]

All of the above. Advancement through out the company. Let the company select the best man for the job. A little competition is good for the soul. How frustrating do you think it is for a guy that is ten times the employee of a senior employee and doesn't even get considered for an open position because he was hired two days after the other guy. Why even bother trying to excel in the industry when all you have to do is sit around and hope everyone above you either quits or dies.

Seems to me you want some sort of utopia and that if we could just get rid of unions everything would be wonderful. Well my freind that world does not exist, in the union world and non-union world. I have seen my share of supervisors and mangers, i.e. non-union, who have no business being in the positions they are in yet somehow manage to stick around. Even get promoted!
You must have a perfect world over there at NWA considering the union is out on strike. Do you?

There are certain people that you can throw into any type of situation and they will take charge of it and make what ever it is happen that needs to happen whether they have any clue as to what they are dong or not. For some reason people look up to them and do as they say with out much thought about it. It is very uncanny. These individuals are very rare but I am sure you know what I am talking about. These individuals should not be retarded by seniority.

Nothing is stoping these individuals from applying for a management position. That senority number means squat when you decide to make a move to the white collar crowd. Once again you seem to want some utopian ideal that in the real world does not always work out. I've seen my share of supervisors and managers who could'nt even leed a boy scout troop across the street.

Is it so obvious? This might hold true in most instances however I mostly pull for the underdog. You guys don't give him a chance.

What do you mean "you guys"? Are you refering to "union guys"? If you are I hope you are aware that unions do not set the minimum standards of new hires. That's up to the company. If the company want's x amount of years us "union guys" have no say in it. It has nothing to do with being an "underdog". It has everything to do with hiring someone who knows what he's doing and not having to spend a lot of time and money trying to bring someone up to speed.

More than likely you. The fact though that the kids was even looked at and considered speaks volumes. You never know when the guy reading the resumes just might say, "What the hell I am going to give this kid a shot. We need some new blood here anyway."

I would hope the guy reading the resumes would have enough sense to take the individual with the experince. I've noticed that you seem to have a recurring theme of underdogs and giving people with minimum expereince a chance. Are you refering to yourself in a round about way? Is the only reason you work for an airline because one happens to have labor problems?

You are segregating the airline industry from the aviation industry as if it was an industry all by itself, which is not the case. If you work for a defense contractor you all but keep banker hours. If you work for an MRO chances are you will be off for the holidays whether you want to be or not. Most air carriers want their aircraft in service at the time of holidays not sitting in some hangar.

Working in the airline industry is not like working for a defense contractor or an MRO. You seem to have said that yourself when you point out that "defense contractors" keep banker hours and MRO's are off on holidays.

Irrelevant? I think that is a tad on the arrogant side wouldn't you say. I do not think they are as different as you would like to make them. I always thought I had it made working at MRO's. I didn't think there was a gravier job until I came here. OH, how wrong I was.

No it's not arrogant, I'm just stating a simple fact. Since I've been doing this longer than you I proably have a better idea about it.

 

[Bagbelt]

I have worked non-union. In a small shop with an interpersonal relationship with managment you either work out or you don't. However, in a large company they can't have a planned lay-off just to hire cheaper help without exposing themselves to discrimitory lawsuits. IBM and ultimately Delta were stopped midstream trying to covert the pensions to cash balance plans because of age discrimination, much less just getting rid of people. Temp.help is just that, permanent employees have rights.

 

[PlayTheOdds]

Seems to me you want some sort of utopia and that if we could just get rid of unions everything would be wonderful. Well my freind that world does not exist, in the union world and non-union world. I have seen my share of supervisors and mangers, i.e. non-union, who have no business being in the positions they are in yet somehow manage to stick around. Even get promoted!
You must have a perfect world over there at NWA considering the union is out on strike. Do you?

No it is not a perfect world here nor anywhere else for that matter. There does need to be a system put in place to protect an employee from rogue managers, there are ways of effectively doing just that without unions.

Nothing is stoping these individuals from applying for a management position. That senority number means squat when you decide to make a move to the white collar crowd. Once again you seem to want some utopian ideal that in the real world does not always work out. I've seen my share of supervisors and managers who could'nt even leed a boy scout troop across the street.

There is no doubt that this is the case in many instances when it comes to management. Once again a system can be put in place to take care of situations like this with out union involvement.

What do you mean "you guys"? Are you refering to "union guys"? If you are I hope you are aware that unions do not set the minimum standards of new hires. That's up to the company. If the company want's x amount of years us "union guys" have no say in it. It has nothing to do with being an "underdog". It has everything to do with hiring someone who knows what he's doing and not having to spend a lot of time and money trying to bring someone up to speed.

I am referring to unions with their outlandish recall rights that are based on seniority. You guys might think they are great but why don't you ask some of your X-AA brothers that are here what they think about them?

I would hope the guy reading the resumes would have enough sense to take the individual with the experince. I've noticed that you seem to have a recurring theme of underdogs and giving people with minimum expereince a chance. Are you refering to yourself in a round about way? Is the only reason you work for an airline because one happens to have labor problems?

No I have really never been interested in the Airline industry for the simple fact there are none in my area. I worked for a defense contractor for years until I got laid-off. Then I went into the contract industry and only took contracts no more than seven or eight hours from the house. That has worked out very well for me. The only reason I took this job is because the money was too easy and I thought I would only be gone a couple of months. I never thought that AMFA would strike. Now that I am here I find the airline industry very interesting.

Working in the airline industry is not like working for a defense contractor or an MRO. You seem to have said that yourself when you point out that "defense contractors" keep banker hours and MRO's are off on holidays.

Other than the hours the jobs are the same. Aircraft fly in get inspected and repaired then sent back out. To me an aircraft is an aircraft.

No it's not arrogant, I'm just stating a simple fact. Since I've been doing this longer than you I proably have a better idea about it.

You are right, it is a simple fact one that I think you are wrong on and I will leave it at that.

 

[Vortilon]

PTO,

What is your constant need for debate about? It's not like you will ever convince anybody here or anywhere else that you are right or justified. In reading your posts, you would probably be more happy in management - you seem to relate better to that system. B)

 

[777 fixer]

"No it is not a perfect world here nor anywhere else for that matter. There does need to be a system put in place to protect an employee from rogue managers, there are ways of effectively doing just that without unions."

Well since you seem to have it all figured out why don't you tell us how such a system would work. What about a company such as NWA where the guys in the ivory tower are "rogue"?


"There is no doubt that this is the case in many instances when it comes to management. Once again a system can be put in place to take care of situations like this with out union involvement."

What are you talking about? What do the unions have to do with the selection of managers and supervisors? And please tell us how this system you speak of would work. Since you have brought it up at least you should give us some more details other that "a system can be put in place to take care of situations like this with out union involvement."

"I am referring to unions with their outlandish recall rights that are based on seniority. You guys might think they are great but why don't you ask some of your X-AA brothers that are here what they think about them?"

Outlandish recall rights? Please explain "outlaindish recall rights". Don't know if you know this but some companies have a bad habit of chucking workers when they get older. That's why there are senority systems in place.

Now before you go and accuse me of being someone with high senority you might be suprised to learn that I'm actually on the tail end of it. To top it off I took a layoff and relocated to another station. However unlike you I did not let it make me become angry and bitter like you have.

I'm going to assume that your telling the truth about working with ex-AA and not lying. Quite frankly I really don't care what they think. IMO they were either stupid or desperate to take a position at NWA. Lets put aside the scab and taking other peoples job thing for a moment. As early as this summer it was obvious to anyone in the airline industry that NWA was heading to BK. Then add to the mix a company that obviouly regards it's employees as a liablity and not an asset. So as I said one has to have rocks in their head to take a position with a company like that.

"No I have really never been interested in the Airline industry for the simple fact there are none in my area. I worked for a defense contractor for years until I got laid-off. Then I went into the contract industry and only took contracts no more than seven or eight hours from the house. That has worked out very well for me. The only reason I took this job is because the money was too easy and I thought I would only be gone a couple of months. I never thought that AMFA would strike. Now that I am here I find the airline industry very interesting."

I'm starting to get a clearer picture here. Let me guess, when you were laid off you were expecting a recall. You waited and waited for a call that never came. In the mean time you saw people you thought to be unworthy get recalled. It made you bitter and angry. So angry in fact you have it in for unions. That's why you took a job with NWA and that's why you try and bait people here on these message boards. It's kind of sad you had to take a job as a contractor jumping from contract to contract. That's no way to live ones life.

"Other than the hours the jobs are the same. Aircraft fly in get inspected and repaired then sent back out. To me an aircraft is an aircraft."


Working for a defense contractor has very little in common with an airline. Working on an airliner is preety much the same. However it's the operational enviornment that is different.

"You are right, it is a simple fact one that I think you are wrong on and I will leave it at that."

It is you who are mistaken. You have'nt been doing this long enough to have an informed opinion.

 

[eolesen]

PTO,

What is your constant need for debate about?

If people would just stop responding to him, he'd go away...

 

[PlayTheOdds]

Well since you seem to have it all figured out why don't you tell us how such a system would work. What about a company such as NWA where the guys in the ivory tower are "rogue"?
What are you talking about? What do the unions have to do with the selection of managers and supervisors? And please tell us how this system you speak of would work. Since you have brought it up at least you should give us some more details other that "a system can be put in place to take care of situations like this with out union involvement."

You are taking about very large and complex plan. One that would require restructuring the entire HR department and turn it into an almost separate entity from the company. Right now HR and management hold hands every day and sleep together every night. That is not the way it was designed nor should be. The department would act as a buffer or mediator if you will between management and the labor force. Also it would control who advances to management through a board or committee where an individual would be reviewed by other department heads. This would operate much along the lines of military boards that soldiers must go through to advance through the ranks. There are actually already systems out there in place they just need to be adapted to what fits your needs.
Outlandish recall rights? Please explain "outlaindish recall rights". Don't know if you know this but some companies have a bad habit of chucking workers when they get older. That's why there are senority systems in place.

Are they really effective in preventing this though? What has recall rights done for the senior mechanics in this strike with Northwest? From my understanding the list of guys wanting to crossover is well up into the upper hundreds. NWA was noted for its aging work force and the guys that are crossing do not fall into the senior category. Either the senior guys simply do not wish to come back or their union seniority has failed them. I do not know which but if I had to put money on it I would bet on the later.

I'm starting to get a clearer picture here. Let me guess, when you were laid off you were expecting a recall. You waited and waited for a call that never came. In the mean time you saw people you thought to be unworthy get recalled. It made you bitter and angry. So angry in fact you have it in for unions. That's why you took a job with NWA and that's why you try and bait people here on these message boards. It's kind of sad you had to take a job as a contractor jumping from contract to contract. That's no way to live ones life.

That is a really sweet scenario you conjured up. There is one tiny detail that you are missing that blows the whole thing to hell and back. It was a non-union shop.

Working for a defense contractor has very little in common with an airline. Working on an airliner is preety much the same. However it's the operational enviornment that is different.

How correct you are. This is much, much more exciting.