IAM FILES AT DELTA FOR UNION REPRESENTATION

[Dignity]

Read the law, it has future increases which still accrue for future benefits.

Wrong again, the IAMNPP is maintained independent of the union, it is made up of trustee appointed by the board which is made up of half appointed from the union and half appointed from the companies that participate.

Google IAM National Pension Plan and you will see its web page.

You make this too easy, like I said, educate yourself, they are defined benefit plans, and yes at US the company controls the DCP plan that was put in place after chapter 11 #2.


And NW participates in it also.

to my understanding the IAM represented employees are the only ones who have a defined pension plan as it was transitioned or merged into the IAM pension plan.
while it is considered active unlike the other employees plans that were frozen such as our group, Flight Attendant.. they (IAM represented employees) could lose future pension credit in the event the IAM was not the representative going forward.

even though they may participate in the plan at this time, it is not definite or guaranteed for future accrual.

of course I stand corrected on that.

 

[john john]

Pension plans have plagued legacy cooperations for years. Companies that have been in business for such short periods haven't had to pay out retirements the way the major auto or airlines have. Airlines like WN or say car makers like Toyota in the States, don't have 80 years of pensions holding them down.

Bottom line Southwest doesn’t have some magic beans that makes them cost-effective. Management loves to make excuses instead of looking at the real reasons Southwest is cost-effective

 

[WorldTraveler]

700UW,
I appreciate your persistence but your version of the "facts" simply doesn't square w/ reality.

US and UA were both out of bankruptcy by the time the Pension Protection Agency of 2005 was passed. UA and US had the option of either terminating their plans or transferring control of them to an outside entity. There was no option to freeze those plans during UA and US' bankruptcy at the time UA and US were in BK.

The primary reason PPA 2006 was passed was because there was a very real concern that DL and NW bankruptcies would have sunk the PBGC. If you recall, DL and NW filed for BK on the same day in the same NY court. Strategic implications aside, there was a clear desire to strengthen both DL and NW"s resolve at effecting change that would benefit them and pension reform was one of those items high on their agenda's. You need only look at t numerous documentst that are still available including SEC filings to know that the airlines which had not terminated their pension plans wanted to reduce their pension funding requirements, esp. in the wake of the 2001 market collapse that saw pension funding requirements skyrocket for companies that still had defined benefit plans.

To a very great degree, PPA happened because of the DL and NW BK filings and the fear that another round of BK filings would require a bailout of the PBGC.

DL and NW got what they wanted - the ability to freeze their DB plans without having to tell their employees they had been terminated but they also now have decades to play catch up. UA and US did not have that option when they were in BK.

The requirements for single employer and multiemployer plans are substantially different under the PPA and it is for that reason that unions continue to be allowed to sponsor or backstop pension plans that single employers cannot. NW does in fact participate in the IAM pension plan but they could not have maintained a plan of their own under requirements of the PPA. Also, PPA required plans that were frozen to no longer accrue benefits. The IAM plan which NW employees have is not the same plan that NW sponsored.

There is a reason that defined benefit plans are being dropped or replaced in record numbers in the US and it is simply because companies are no longer willing to guarantee the retirement benefits of employees. If you have even the slightest concern about the future of Social Security, then you should really be concerned about a Defined Benefit pension plan. It is almost certain that companies inside and outside of the airline industry will continue to look for every opportunity to get out of them - and it is also very possible that DL may move to terminate its frozen plans at some point in the future - after most of the employees who think their pension is still safe will have "moved on". Yes, most of the frozen plans affect employees whose benefits are guaranteed by the PBGC but PBGC requirements for withdrawal are quite a bit more restrictive than DL and NW had. AA and CO have tried numerous times to get the same pension deferrals that other airlines have but have not been able to meet the requirements of financial stress.

There is no guarantee that pension benefits currently provided as part of the union backed airline pension plans will survive; you need only look at the auto industry to realize that unions cannot save benefits that the automakers no longer want or can afford.

Quite frankly, most people would far prefer to have control of their own retirement assets without having to worry if someone is going to try and take them away at some point in the future.

 

[Dignity]

NW does in fact participate in the IAM pension plan but they could not have maintained a plan of their own under requirements of the PPA. Also, PPA required plans that were frozen to no longer accrue benefits. The IAM plan which NW employees have is not the same plan that NW sponsored.

but the IAM still has their plan it just looks different? because to my understanding it was transitioned into the IAM pension plan (and have an ability for future accrual if it is under a separate plan altogether?) and would still be considered active at this time.

 

[Kev3188]

IAM members have 2 pensions.

The old pension is frozen. How ever many years of service you had as of that date is what you'll get once you retire. For the ramp, the multiplier is/was $51.00/mox years of service.

Going forward, the IAM membership at NWA participates in the IAMNPF. The service date for that is either '05 or '06 (sorry I can't remember exactly, and there is a one year gap between the old one & the current one).

NOTE: IIRC, Sim techs opted for a 401k match instead of the IAMNPF, but I may be off on that...

When I retire, I will 2 monthly checks; check A from NWA for X amount, and check B from the IAM for Y amount.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Thanks, Kev.
According to NW's 2007 annual report (page 33) NWA elected to take the provisions of the PPA on Oct 1, 2006, shortly after the bill was signed into law and about the same time DL took the provisions.
I am guessing your DB plan was frozen in December 2005 similar to the time for DL's DB plans. DL also had a gap in pension coverage while they were in BK and their employees now receive 401K benefits.

For those of you who are interested, you might wish to save NW's last annual reports filed on form 10K with the SEC. Since NWA no longer exists as an independent company any more, its financial filings will be archived and will only be available by paying a fee. You can find NWA's 2007 and 2008 (the last) annual report here:

http://www.annualreports.com/Company/3789

 

[Dignity]

Since NWA no longer exists as an independent company any more

that is not actually entirely correct. while working under separate certificates, NW is a subsidiary.

 

[BABABOOY]

that is not actually entirely correct. while working under separate certificates, NW is a subsidiary.

Yes a subsidiary:
A company whose voting stock is more than 50% controlled by another company, usually referred to as the parent company.

So how is it, that NW is independent?

 

[Dignity]

Yes a subsidiary:
A company whose voting stock is more than 50% controlled by another company, usually referred to as the parent company.

So how is it, that NW is independent?

never said it was "independent"..

I mentioned it was not entirely correct..

sort of like half correct..

maybe like 50% correct...

 

[john john]

...and they are going to rapidly pass it on to the hardest working technicians

So the chances of getting back the define pension and having it fully funded back and making it a valuable plan again is likely without a union voicing/negotiating/bargaining there position no union voice is the way to go…..
You better believe ALPA is going to revisit there position. And when they are done your little nest egg will be there’s

 

[WorldTraveler]

The DB pension plans are gone... those that are frozen cannot be "thawed" and even if they could be, the airlines would never agree to it - no matter what labor wants.

The terminated plans are up to the PBGC to honor.

Regardless of your thoughts/preferences on DB plans, airline sponsored plans are all but gone and they won't return.

 

[Dignity]

The DB pension plans are gone...

however the responsibility funding these pension programs will not be "gone".

those that are frozen cannot be "thawed" and even if they could be, the airlines would never agree to it - no matter what labor wants

what a way to make people feel special!

for example:

employee: I cannot really afford to retire because of these paycuts and my pension is "gone" I worked so hard for you, can you please at least consider looking at this..

:angry2: employer: even if it was possible to happen, we will never agree to it, no matter what you want.

:huh: employee: what?

employer: LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA "I'M NOT LISTENING!!!!"




nice. :blink:

The terminated plans are up to the PBGC to honor.

because tossing that responsibility onto the taxpayers is such a better option? :down:

 

[Dignity]

is going to revisit there position. And when they are done your little nest egg will be there’s

that in itself would absolutely create labor problems.. if they delivered such a divisive and poor business decision restoring one group and not even consider doing the same with another.. IMO

 

[southwind]

however the responsibility funding these pension programs will not be "gone".



what a way to make people feel special!

for example:

employee: I cannot really afford to retire because of these paycuts and my pension is "gone" I worked so hard for you, can you please at least consider looking at this..

:angry2: employer: even if it was possible to happen, we will never agree to it, no matter what you want.

:huh: employee: what?

employer: LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA "I'M NOT LISTENING!!!!"




nice. :blink:


because tossing that responsibility onto the taxpayers is such a better option? :down:

You mean like bailing out union-workers at GM ?

 

[Dignity]

You mean like bailing out union-workers at GM ?

well my personal opinion is this!

I dont care if someone is union, non-union, wants to be union, could care less if they were ever union!

regardless of "representation" at any company.. if an employer starts to screw with an earned pension.

uh yeah, I would hope someone would step in!