PlayTheOdds
Veteran
I wasn't trying to imply anything I simply asked a question in regards to a comment another mechanic made to me at work. I am simply interested in how a pilots pay works.
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- Thread starter Bear96
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local 12 proud
Veteran
- Mar 5, 2004
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.....well since you claim to be all buddies with the flight crews why dont you just ask a pilot yourself
PlayTheOdds
Veteran
We don't have time to engage a lot of conversation. Most of the time they aren't even on the aircraft for more than a few seconds when we get there. As soon as the passengers are done de-boarding the flight crew are right behind them. I really don't care to start a conversation with one of them by saying "Hey how much money do you make and how much of it do you actually earn?" Why don't you go find you some buddies?
An "average" pilot has the following type of schedule and pay for a month, using the airline I work for as an example:
Avg Monthly Days worked - about 11
Avg Monthly Hours actually flying - about 55-60 hours
Avg Monthly total paid hours - about 75-80
Avg Monthly Pay - $12,000 ($144,000 annually)
The TAFB is kind of a meaningless figure, as it is only used in calculating their per diem and penalty pay. It is not a representation of "working" because it includes all hours away from home, including when they're sleeping in their hotel room.
The 20-25 hours of monthly pay that are not from flying the aircraft are largely made up of vacation, sick and penalty pay. The penalty portion (about 5 hours per month) is driven by the TAFB, which encourages our schedulers to construct trips that use pilots efficiently, (i.e., doesn't have them sit in a station for a couple days waiting for their next fligth).
In general, you could say that they "work" about 8 hours a day for about 11 days a month, if you include the pre and post flight time they spend on duty that does not get captured in flying pay. Obviously, they're away from their family for those 11 days sleeping in hotels and eating airport food, so quality of life somewhat offsets that relatively low "working" schedule. They are also constrained by FAA limitations on the number of hours they can fly in a month and in any given 24 hour period. There are much more productive pilot groups (Southwest, Jetblue, etc), but I don't know the particulars of their regular schedule. My example is what you'd likely see at any legacy carrier.
Hopefully this helps to shed some light on your discussion.
Avg Monthly Days worked - about 11
Avg Monthly Hours actually flying - about 55-60 hours
Avg Monthly total paid hours - about 75-80
Avg Monthly Pay - $12,000 ($144,000 annually)
The TAFB is kind of a meaningless figure, as it is only used in calculating their per diem and penalty pay. It is not a representation of "working" because it includes all hours away from home, including when they're sleeping in their hotel room.
The 20-25 hours of monthly pay that are not from flying the aircraft are largely made up of vacation, sick and penalty pay. The penalty portion (about 5 hours per month) is driven by the TAFB, which encourages our schedulers to construct trips that use pilots efficiently, (i.e., doesn't have them sit in a station for a couple days waiting for their next fligth).
In general, you could say that they "work" about 8 hours a day for about 11 days a month, if you include the pre and post flight time they spend on duty that does not get captured in flying pay. Obviously, they're away from their family for those 11 days sleeping in hotels and eating airport food, so quality of life somewhat offsets that relatively low "working" schedule. They are also constrained by FAA limitations on the number of hours they can fly in a month and in any given 24 hour period. There are much more productive pilot groups (Southwest, Jetblue, etc), but I don't know the particulars of their regular schedule. My example is what you'd likely see at any legacy carrier.
Hopefully this helps to shed some light on your discussion.
PlayTheOdds
Veteran
Thank you bjbergum. That is a very nicely laid out and informative post which is what these forums are all about. It is very comforting to see that there are intelligent and decent people in the airline industry, personally I can name only a very few. I would like to welcome you to US Aviation.com and our beloved NWA forum. I hope to see future posts from you. Welcome aboard.
Finman, you aren't even CLOSE to estimating what the "average" pilot earns or works. Maybe you work at Southwest, FedEX, or UPS, where pilots can actually earn some dough and have a well above average quality of life, but you certainly aren't stating the averages at UAL or any other major or LCC that I know of. Now that we're all earning JetBlue/Airtran/Frontier wages and working under LCC work rules, try this on for size for UAL (estimating using me and my friends and my F/O's at UAL as guides):
Average monthly days worked: AT LEAST 15-16 (I'm out of town about 20 days per month as a reserve). Practically NOBODY works 11 days a month anymore. Maybe the international guys. Maybe the extremely senior ones. Not the average airline pilot.
Average monthy hours actually flying: much closer to 70 (75-80+ for me isn't uncommon)
Average total monthly hourly pay: very close to actual hours flown (duty rigs gone, vacation benefits halved, etc. UAL has finally figured out how to schedule us more efficently somewhat)
Average monthly pay: $12,000??? (what a joke. I'm a 737 Captain busting my a$$ flying and I'm not making that. Take a 1/3 to a 1/4 off of that figure for me keeping in mind that as a Captain, I earn more than the "average" pilot.)
Finman, I have no idea where you got you're info, but you're averages are significantly off for the "average" pilot, LCC or Legacy and is NOT what you would likely see at most carriers.
Average monthly days worked: AT LEAST 15-16 (I'm out of town about 20 days per month as a reserve). Practically NOBODY works 11 days a month anymore. Maybe the international guys. Maybe the extremely senior ones. Not the average airline pilot.
Average monthy hours actually flying: much closer to 70 (75-80+ for me isn't uncommon)
Average total monthly hourly pay: very close to actual hours flown (duty rigs gone, vacation benefits halved, etc. UAL has finally figured out how to schedule us more efficently somewhat)
Average monthly pay: $12,000??? (what a joke. I'm a 737 Captain busting my a$$ flying and I'm not making that. Take a 1/3 to a 1/4 off of that figure for me keeping in mind that as a Captain, I earn more than the "average" pilot.)
Finman, I have no idea where you got you're info, but you're averages are significantly off for the "average" pilot, LCC or Legacy and is NOT what you would likely see at most carriers.
PlayTheOdds
Veteran
You guys can make anything difficult. You guys can take a simple question and turn it into a mad house. Lets just start the clock when a pilot gets on the aircraft or if there is some sort of preflight briefing or flight planning that goes on before then lets start the clock then. Lets stop the clock when the pilot leaves the aircraft for the day. Is that simple enough? Then lets break that down into an hourly pay. Is there anyone out there with the brainpower and knowledge of their pay to put such a simple formula together? It is only difficult if you make it that way.
UALDriver,
My apologies. I should have been more precise in my answer and stated that this represents the average pilot that is working for a legacy carrier that has not gone through reorganization. My response would be an answer to PTO's orginal question about an NWA pilot, which my information is based on, and does reflect the current "average" pilot. Obviously, this is going to change dramatically in the next few months as work rules and pay rates are changed to be more in line with LCC's and reorganized airlines.
There is just too much variability in the way a question like that can be answered without writing a novel to explain all of the exceptions/variations.
I think our two versions are a good book-end of the old world vs. new world pilot productivity and pilot pay.
My apologies. I should have been more precise in my answer and stated that this represents the average pilot that is working for a legacy carrier that has not gone through reorganization. My response would be an answer to PTO's orginal question about an NWA pilot, which my information is based on, and does reflect the current "average" pilot. Obviously, this is going to change dramatically in the next few months as work rules and pay rates are changed to be more in line with LCC's and reorganized airlines.
There is just too much variability in the way a question like that can be answered without writing a novel to explain all of the exceptions/variations.
I think our two versions are a good book-end of the old world vs. new world pilot productivity and pilot pay.
PlayTheOdds
Veteran
For the members that answered my question, thank you. To all the other clowns and lurkers, I am amazed at hoe little you guys know about the industry in which you work. You guys know 1000 times more about unions than you do your own jobs.
