I guess thats a matter of opinion. If I wasn't over it I'd still be unemployed. But thankfully I am totally over it, happily employed and enjoying life. Not being over it couldn't be further from the truth. For goodness sake it is now ancient history.TWAnr said:
Asset Purchase Agreement
- Thread starter L1011Ret
- Start date
Can you please list what statements were untrue? I listed a hotline with info on the TW isssue. I am far from mad at anyone. If there is mis-information being spread its by the likes of TWnr, L1011 and yourself. If any of my statements are wrong then explain where the rates of pay came from.jsn25911 said:
Hi Miaami - glad you are back.
When you stated that apfa negotiated that TWA would get AA salary - that was not true - AA stated that we would mirror the AA f/a's and thus that is why we are being paid the same as other AA f/a's
When you stated that apfa negotiated that TWA would get AA salary - that was not true - AA stated that we would mirror the AA f/a's and thus that is why we are being paid the same as other AA f/a's
Do you really think that AA would give you DOH for pay out of the kindness of their heart? AA would like nothing more than for 5 yrs to run out and not have any of the TW'ers come back. I'm finished with this thread so bash away if you want. I'm starting to think your right, I must be sick to keep responding.
Ok everybody here is my "winded" & overly misspelled view on this thread.......
We ALL know that a condition of agreement was for 1)Trans World Airlines,Inc. to file ch.11 bk court protection so that THEN AMR's crafty little soul sucking vermon lawyer's could begin the "dismantling" of said airline above (tbrt-TWA) and finally rid TWA of satin's son Carl Ichan & his "Karabou" agreement. That I beleave was leagl's #1 task.There next goal was to renegociate the leases on Bill Compant's "One new plane every day,week..." fleet upgrade project that came at a HEAVY price. When one's credit is excellent,great,or good then you get better rates and deal's but when credit is NOT one of the above you get less then great or wonderful deals.(Personal moment here. I can attest to the credit issue from personal point of view. Since April 2003 I have scene my strong solid credit rateing DIVE to the point of possible filing personal bk. I take full responsibilty for my credit and credit score's however I do know the who the when and lame ass excuses for why guy who laid down the foundation for the journey I have been on since.) So back to topic-the vermon lawyers renegociate a/c leases which alone I do recall helped the now TWA,LLC post very good numbers for the qtr. The financial part of the BK was going as planned or better. So now for condition 2.Once in bk the labor unions at TWA were to "waive" or "drop" certain arcticles or clauses in there respective contracts BEFORE AMR would even proceed with deal. Each work group had there "issues" to have to deal with. Since it was just ALPA & IAM I think it might have been shall we say "overwellming" since the IAM alone represented the vast majority if emp. and the "Texas size tornado" that was bearring down St.Louis at the time was causing for less then ideal cinditions to take that step back and breath and go "Let us review and consult w/our members and we will get back to you ASAP". Now you ALL know NOW that's NOT how AMR operates so atleaste you can't blame ignorance for the future. Now for the purposes of sticking to this threads topic and since I am a f/a and didn't pay too much attention to anything other then the IAM's f/a's here is what I recall as to be the conditions foor the TWA f/a's-you a "scope" type clause or a successorship clause in your contract that would govern how ANY type of intergration with a nother airline would be handled. The preconditons stated by AMR for the deal to even get off the ground was that the IAM represented f/a's remove drop sign away whatever your "scope" or Allg-Mohk. clause and any all related language pertaining to said. Also other arcticles pertaing to work rules etc...basic saying that once you are part of AMR-TWA,LLC your contract will mirror that of the AMR-AA APFA aggreement. OK now we know that yes the IAM did infact agree to the precondition terms set fourth by AMR so BAM it's done. Now after the fact and at no fault of the IAM I might add the IAM tryed to get some clearer wording and understanding from AMR as to what exactly are we looking at here in regards to how will our f/a's be treated and intergrated into AA. In typical AMR style it was deffered to the APFA because thats who represents our f/a's and they will decide your fate.WRONG!!! (I'll get to taht in a sec). I know and we ALL know that Sherry Cooper and others from the IAM tryed to contact and/or meet John Ward & other APFA reps but were sadly and I add rudely blown off by John Ward using the lame excuse of the contract neogciations as to why the APFA or any designated rep.of couldn't do a "mmet and greet" w/SC and IAM.(personal moment #2-JW is an ASS!! He lacks basic leadership skills and I bet he repeatedly would open up all the "juices" in the soda insert because"ya know the'll all want juice".To those on this BB that STILL stand behind JW & his reelection & give him total credit for OUR industry leading contract,I say you had better read up on your APFA history buddy because that so called miserable TA1 that was so "overwellming" voted down becauswe of that awfull Denise Hedges was the foundation that for the TA2 and JW industry leading contract that he takes total credit for and f/a's like you so blindly beleave. Oh and ask your local base chair Randy Troutman just where was JW when Denise called the strike and lead over 80% out into history.JW was base chair of DFW @ the time.) So back to my 2 cents-JW rudely rebuffs the IAM until after negociations. There is no interaction. There is know "meet & greet". You get the BOD's resolution stating what JW as head neogciater is to do and what he is accomplish in negociateing a SIA w/AA. Now for ALL those who beleave that the great AMR is the grantor of all things upto but not including bidding sen. is sadly misbeleaving. AMR if it soo desire'd could dictate EVERYTHING or NOTHING at all if it so fit!! AMR learned a valueble leason durring the RenoAir/pilots sick out period. As the APA was acting like children the TWU & APFA along w/AA I might add waited and watched. After it ended AMR looked to the TWU & APFA and basicly said "Whatever you guy's deem to be fair and acceptable we will go along with it.) That's when the foundation for future f/a intergrations are handled by AA/APFA. The then APFA BOD drafted up the formula for Sen.for pay,vac's & retire.and no credit for sen. as it pertains to bidding. Thast's what they came up with and thats what AA agreed to for the RenoAir f/a's. Thus thats how the current APFA BOD and JW viewd the TWA f/a inter. Now if JW had maybe been an adult and proper leader and just took a second out of his bizzy day and said to SC/IAM "Here is what it's gonna resemble. It's been challenge in court and upheld TWICE. Disscuss amongst your f/a's as to how you can best be accomindated with in this frame work and we will talk just as soon I am done taking credit for this soon to be but short lived industry leading contract." NO thats not what was done. YES it was insulting too not just soon to be members but to a fellow human being! That has been the fuel that has driven the fire ever since and you know what I agree. I'd sue too. Alittle humility and respect and compasion can go along way.
SO here we are coming up on 2 yrs and we are the only group that still is dealing with an issue that if properly handled by compitint leadership would be behind us. It is of my oppion that the lawsuits will not suceed if they remain in the courts. I base that solely on the RENO decisions. I do beleave that when Tommy-Hutto Blake becomes APFA president she will work with the BOD to repair the damage that has been caused by JW's total lack of leadership in the this matter. She WILL stick to Resolution #4 as passed by the BOD unless a new one is putforth that is supported by the membership. She will be a leader that I feel all AA f/a's will respect regardless of from hence you came. The SIA is out of the hands of the membership at this point,PERIOD. To use it as scar tactic to get elected is just down right STUPID.
In closing let me say this also. The SIA as it stands is far from perfect and to many far from fair and equitable. The APFA looks to many as a 'non-unioist" or selfish group calling themselves a union. However as we stand in 2004 and look back past April 2003,April 10,2001,September 11,2001,November 1993 to 1977 when a group broads dames and queers decided it was time to try it independantly and break away from the oh so powerfull NATIOAL TWU and formed the Association of Professional Flight Attendants I can say that the writing was on the wall.That the act of representing yourself and paying dues to yourself and having to live and work with what you yourself negociated is a far better feeling then anything else that is now part of this new millenium of "unionism". Maybe the fact that as we proceed further down this path of deregulation and non-union LCC's the independent union is what will be left of what was once a prederegualtion good old boy's Jimmy Hoffa maybe mob ran NATIOAL union. To say the APFA is not a true "union" should look no further then November 1993 when the little union that could DID. It showed not just AMR,other airlines,the govermeant but showed the rest of unionised labor that we still have a place and therefore a need to exist to protect those that need protecting and that unions do have a place in the new millenium. It also in my op. vindicated those of our brothers and sisters from TWA that the ones went out and stayed out until recall that your strike and your pain did not go un-noticed. We knew that since Ichan had won through the courts the right to hire striker replacment workers we actually succeeded where you were unlucky we won the battle we returned to our jobs feeling victorious but that war was not settled for another 2 yrs later.
Thats it I am tired of typeing and I know my spelling and grammer is HORRIFIC but wanted get my 2 cents off my chest.
Anything you want or need clarification just PM me or email me. I wish not to go back and forth taking up space for others to voice there 2 cents.
Peace
SB
We ALL know that a condition of agreement was for 1)Trans World Airlines,Inc. to file ch.11 bk court protection so that THEN AMR's crafty little soul sucking vermon lawyer's could begin the "dismantling" of said airline above (tbrt-TWA) and finally rid TWA of satin's son Carl Ichan & his "Karabou" agreement. That I beleave was leagl's #1 task.There next goal was to renegociate the leases on Bill Compant's "One new plane every day,week..." fleet upgrade project that came at a HEAVY price. When one's credit is excellent,great,or good then you get better rates and deal's but when credit is NOT one of the above you get less then great or wonderful deals.(Personal moment here. I can attest to the credit issue from personal point of view. Since April 2003 I have scene my strong solid credit rateing DIVE to the point of possible filing personal bk. I take full responsibilty for my credit and credit score's however I do know the who the when and lame ass excuses for why guy who laid down the foundation for the journey I have been on since.) So back to topic-the vermon lawyers renegociate a/c leases which alone I do recall helped the now TWA,LLC post very good numbers for the qtr. The financial part of the BK was going as planned or better. So now for condition 2.Once in bk the labor unions at TWA were to "waive" or "drop" certain arcticles or clauses in there respective contracts BEFORE AMR would even proceed with deal. Each work group had there "issues" to have to deal with. Since it was just ALPA & IAM I think it might have been shall we say "overwellming" since the IAM alone represented the vast majority if emp. and the "Texas size tornado" that was bearring down St.Louis at the time was causing for less then ideal cinditions to take that step back and breath and go "Let us review and consult w/our members and we will get back to you ASAP". Now you ALL know NOW that's NOT how AMR operates so atleaste you can't blame ignorance for the future. Now for the purposes of sticking to this threads topic and since I am a f/a and didn't pay too much attention to anything other then the IAM's f/a's here is what I recall as to be the conditions foor the TWA f/a's-you a "scope" type clause or a successorship clause in your contract that would govern how ANY type of intergration with a nother airline would be handled. The preconditons stated by AMR for the deal to even get off the ground was that the IAM represented f/a's remove drop sign away whatever your "scope" or Allg-Mohk. clause and any all related language pertaining to said. Also other arcticles pertaing to work rules etc...basic saying that once you are part of AMR-TWA,LLC your contract will mirror that of the AMR-AA APFA aggreement. OK now we know that yes the IAM did infact agree to the precondition terms set fourth by AMR so BAM it's done. Now after the fact and at no fault of the IAM I might add the IAM tryed to get some clearer wording and understanding from AMR as to what exactly are we looking at here in regards to how will our f/a's be treated and intergrated into AA. In typical AMR style it was deffered to the APFA because thats who represents our f/a's and they will decide your fate.WRONG!!! (I'll get to taht in a sec). I know and we ALL know that Sherry Cooper and others from the IAM tryed to contact and/or meet John Ward & other APFA reps but were sadly and I add rudely blown off by John Ward using the lame excuse of the contract neogciations as to why the APFA or any designated rep.of couldn't do a "mmet and greet" w/SC and IAM.(personal moment #2-JW is an ASS!! He lacks basic leadership skills and I bet he repeatedly would open up all the "juices" in the soda insert because"ya know the'll all want juice".To those on this BB that STILL stand behind JW & his reelection & give him total credit for OUR industry leading contract,I say you had better read up on your APFA history buddy because that so called miserable TA1 that was so "overwellming" voted down becauswe of that awfull Denise Hedges was the foundation that for the TA2 and JW industry leading contract that he takes total credit for and f/a's like you so blindly beleave. Oh and ask your local base chair Randy Troutman just where was JW when Denise called the strike and lead over 80% out into history.JW was base chair of DFW @ the time.) So back to my 2 cents-JW rudely rebuffs the IAM until after negociations. There is no interaction. There is know "meet & greet". You get the BOD's resolution stating what JW as head neogciater is to do and what he is accomplish in negociateing a SIA w/AA. Now for ALL those who beleave that the great AMR is the grantor of all things upto but not including bidding sen. is sadly misbeleaving. AMR if it soo desire'd could dictate EVERYTHING or NOTHING at all if it so fit!! AMR learned a valueble leason durring the RenoAir/pilots sick out period. As the APA was acting like children the TWU & APFA along w/AA I might add waited and watched. After it ended AMR looked to the TWU & APFA and basicly said "Whatever you guy's deem to be fair and acceptable we will go along with it.) That's when the foundation for future f/a intergrations are handled by AA/APFA. The then APFA BOD drafted up the formula for Sen.for pay,vac's & retire.and no credit for sen. as it pertains to bidding. Thast's what they came up with and thats what AA agreed to for the RenoAir f/a's. Thus thats how the current APFA BOD and JW viewd the TWA f/a inter. Now if JW had maybe been an adult and proper leader and just took a second out of his bizzy day and said to SC/IAM "Here is what it's gonna resemble. It's been challenge in court and upheld TWICE. Disscuss amongst your f/a's as to how you can best be accomindated with in this frame work and we will talk just as soon I am done taking credit for this soon to be but short lived industry leading contract." NO thats not what was done. YES it was insulting too not just soon to be members but to a fellow human being! That has been the fuel that has driven the fire ever since and you know what I agree. I'd sue too. Alittle humility and respect and compasion can go along way.
SO here we are coming up on 2 yrs and we are the only group that still is dealing with an issue that if properly handled by compitint leadership would be behind us. It is of my oppion that the lawsuits will not suceed if they remain in the courts. I base that solely on the RENO decisions. I do beleave that when Tommy-Hutto Blake becomes APFA president she will work with the BOD to repair the damage that has been caused by JW's total lack of leadership in the this matter. She WILL stick to Resolution #4 as passed by the BOD unless a new one is putforth that is supported by the membership. She will be a leader that I feel all AA f/a's will respect regardless of from hence you came. The SIA is out of the hands of the membership at this point,PERIOD. To use it as scar tactic to get elected is just down right STUPID.
In closing let me say this also. The SIA as it stands is far from perfect and to many far from fair and equitable. The APFA looks to many as a 'non-unioist" or selfish group calling themselves a union. However as we stand in 2004 and look back past April 2003,April 10,2001,September 11,2001,November 1993 to 1977 when a group broads dames and queers decided it was time to try it independantly and break away from the oh so powerfull NATIOAL TWU and formed the Association of Professional Flight Attendants I can say that the writing was on the wall.That the act of representing yourself and paying dues to yourself and having to live and work with what you yourself negociated is a far better feeling then anything else that is now part of this new millenium of "unionism". Maybe the fact that as we proceed further down this path of deregulation and non-union LCC's the independent union is what will be left of what was once a prederegualtion good old boy's Jimmy Hoffa maybe mob ran NATIOAL union. To say the APFA is not a true "union" should look no further then November 1993 when the little union that could DID. It showed not just AMR,other airlines,the govermeant but showed the rest of unionised labor that we still have a place and therefore a need to exist to protect those that need protecting and that unions do have a place in the new millenium. It also in my op. vindicated those of our brothers and sisters from TWA that the ones went out and stayed out until recall that your strike and your pain did not go un-noticed. We knew that since Ichan had won through the courts the right to hire striker replacment workers we actually succeeded where you were unlucky we won the battle we returned to our jobs feeling victorious but that war was not settled for another 2 yrs later.
Thats it I am tired of typeing and I know my spelling and grammer is HORRIFIC but wanted get my 2 cents off my chest.
Anything you want or need clarification just PM me or email me. I wish not to go back and forth taking up space for others to voice there 2 cents.
Peace
SB
- Thread Starter
- #52
Just follow the court proceedings one step at a time. None of us here are going to have any effect on the outcome.
- Thread Starter
- #53
AA's promise to TWA F/As in relation to occupational seniority, was that TWA F/As would be provided benefits no less favorable than those applicable to similarly situated American employees. Since this was for occupational (bidding) seniority, what do you suppose was meant by the parties? The operative term would appear to be "similarly situated."
TWAnr
Veteran
The provisions for pay and company seniority were agreed upon between AMR, Trans World Airlines, Inc. and the TWA unions as part of the asset purchase transaction and are documented in the United States Bankruptcy Court - District of Delaware case records. Even the agents received those types of seniorities and they are non-union at AA (were IAM at TWA); perhaps the APFA should claim credit for that too?MiAAmi said:
Those terms, as well as the health and travel benefits for those who were already retired from TWA by the time of the acquisition and merger were negotiated by the parties as AMR does not give any such benefits away out of the goodness of its executive's hearts and were included in the court order approving the final transaction.
- Thread Starter
- #55
MiAAmi, would you be gracious enough to point out the misinformation TWAnr and I am spreading? I would be happy to delete, edit or apologize for any misinformation.
Of course there was an ulterior motive. AA needed the employees to back the acquisition or it never would have gone through.MiAAmi said:
MK
- Thread Starter
- #57
How right you are MK. Without all of AA's promises to TWA employees, "fair and equitable" and seniority equal to "similarity situated" AA F/As, along with promises to retirees, the purchase never would have been given the blessings of Senators during the hearings on this matter. That AA failed to live up to its promises is a matter for the courts to decide.
MCI transplant
Veteran
- Jun 4, 2003
- 5,311
- 587
L1011ret----- Do you have any idea as to when that might be? Signed: "Just another redheaded stepchild!"
- Thread Starter
- #59
MCI, 'when that might be?' I have to assume
you are talking court proceedings? Right? As in all cases like this, defendants AA and APFA have sought a motion to dismiss. Briefs have been filed. The attorney for the TWA F/As has asked for oral arguments. Should be scheduled soon, like within 45 to 60 days I would guess.
you are talking court proceedings? Right? As in all cases like this, defendants AA and APFA have sought a motion to dismiss. Briefs have been filed. The attorney for the TWA F/As has asked for oral arguments. Should be scheduled soon, like within 45 to 60 days I would guess.
