Bankruptcy Would have been worse?

[Bob Owens]

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On 5/26/2003 2:55:33 PM FrugalFlyer wrote:


Didn''t the UA employees also ''give up'' their ESOP? Doesn''t that count as a concession?

Its tough to say how kind a bankruptcy judge would be to AA mechanincs. I''d imagine the paycut would be similar to UA (13%), which I guess is better than what your union ''negotiated'', but I''m sure AA would ask for you to give up more.


Getting the ESOP was a concession in 1994.



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[Bob Owens]

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On 5/26/2003 6:03:55 PM AAmech wrote:


Well Bob "Half Truth" Owens is at it again! He fails to mention UAL's health insurance for a family is like $200+ a month now. Also the closure of two of their three maint bases and the thousands of layoffs that accompanied that action. Unlike the layoffs at AA, those jobs are gone FOREVER! Our new system protection date is in 1998. After UAL's Chap 11 theirs is in 1990!! To hold a mechanics position at UA you now need 13 years seniority! But hey, they got a GREAT deal in Bankrupcy Court!

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First of all how do you know what "forever" will hold?

We dont know what our rates for medical will be now that the pilot cap is gone.

We do know that we get paid straight time for training off shift.

We know that we get less Vacation than United, thats $1200- just paid for 6 months of the medical insurance.

We know we lost 5 holidays, thats $1800, so after paying off the medical that leaves us $600 in the whole.

We know we lost Holiday pay for the remaining 5 holidays and instead just get time and a half for them, thats an additional $1200. That already puts us $1800 in the whole.

We lost shift differential, thats another $1144, $2944, that UAL Medical is getting cheaper and cheaper.

We lost full pay for the first two sick days, if you get sick just once a year thats $240. $3184

We lost Longevity pay, another $624. $ 3718

Prefunding, another $165. $3883.

We do pay for medical benifits now,Medical Managed care, $742 plus $1625 for the FSA for all they dont cover and co-pays.$6250

And we did not even figure in the paycut!

The potential losses are much higher when other factors are put in, this is just for a 40 hour week,
and we still do not know what our medical will be.


As far as the layoffs, if you were in this industry for a while you would know that layoffs were always a part of the cycle. Concessions like this were not.

I remember working with both AA and UAL laid off guys at Capitol Air in 1981. The AA guys had around 10 years and the UAL guys had as much as 25 years. All who chose to go back eventually did. The same thing would have happened now. In fact the layoffs are less severe now than they were in 1981, as a percentage. The Unions in this industry sold out the workers.

AA was in much better shape than UAL before SEpt 11, yet we lost more than they did without even going into BK. Why, if our company was in better shape would we are fared worse than UAL did in BK,excluding the fact of who we had for representation of course?

 

[Bob Owens]

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On 5/27/2003 8:57:26 AM FWAAA wrote:

I never ceases to amaze me how much certain people long for bankruptcy. They almost sound disappointed that AA didn''t file last month and with each positive development, they sound more and more angry.

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What should amaze you is how all these positive developements came just as the No voters said they would, right after they got what they wanted.
This is what happens over and over again in this industry. They did it in the early eighties, they did it in the early 90s, and they have just done it again.

 

[FWAAA]

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On 5/27/2003 935 AM Bob Owens wrote:

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On 5/27/2003 8:57:26 AM FWAAA wrote:

I never ceases to amaze me how much certain people long for bankruptcy.  They almost sound disappointed that AA didn''t file last month and with each positive development, they sound more and more angry.

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What should amaze you is how all these positive developements came just as the No voters said they would, right after they got what they wanted.
This is what happens over and over again in this industry. They did it in the early eighties, they did it in the early 90s, and they have just done it again.

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You mean the end of the war in Iraq, along with lower oil prices (because the war was ending), the revelation that SARS was a media-created panic (as opposed to the worldwide epidemic they pretended it was), and the recovery in air traffic (because the war was ending)?? You mean those clouds that parted?? Yep - GWB had it in for the AA unions and orchestrated the whole thing to help out his friends at AA.

Nope - no delusions here.

I wasn''t a no voter or a yes voter, and I predicted the positive news, too.

 

[1AA]

These are my figures from my Pay stub on the new pay scale.

Base: $65,653
Now deduct the lose of the old Holiday multiplier and shift two premium.
$4451.80 H.P.
$1,060.80 Shift two
Total $60,140.52

We lost the following:
5 holidays at 2.5 old rate
Now 5 days straight pay at new rate.
We lost 5 days at 2.5 old rate and replaced with 1.5 new rate.
Shift two, shift three and midnight retention premium.
One weeks payed vacation.

I have to stop here, this is making me sick....

 

[Oliver Stone''s Apprentice]

My wife, who was laid off in January lost the following:

All paid holidays
All shift premiums
All paid vacation
All sick time
All benefits, although COBRA was an option at about $500+ per month
All ID travel

Given the option of making your $60K vs $65K, I think she''d opt for the $60K.

 

[Buck]

You do not have to answer the question

 

[Oliver Stone''s Apprentice]

No, she wasn''t union represented, and I''m still trying to see where that''s relevent, Buck. Baseline it over a couple of years, and show me where the non-union folks have had it worse.

From where I sit, it looks like union and non-union folks have fared equally bad when it comes to layoffs and pay reductions. The same appears to hold true at the other carriers who have had large furloughs.

 

[KCFlyer]

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On 5/27/2003 1250 PM Buck wrote:


Curious... was your wife in a union?

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Yes...she was a mechanic at NWA.

 

[Oliver Stone''s Apprentice]

Would it have mattered? If you''re furloughed you''re furloughed. A reduced paycheck is still better than no paycheck, unless you make less than the max for unemployment.

 

[Buck]

Curious... was your wife in a union?

 

[Buck]

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On 5/27/2003 12:49:04 PM eolesen wrote:

No, she wasn''t union represented, and I''m still trying to see where that''s relevent, Buck. Baseline it over a couple of years, and show me where the non-union folks have had it worse.

From where I sit, it looks like union and non-union folks have fared equally bad when it comes to layoffs and pay reductions. The same appears to hold true at the other carriers who have had large furloughs.

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I was curious as to the unionization of your wife as to any job security.

Over the last couple of years maybe, however in the last 20 years those represented under the TWU had two things.

1) Massive wage concessions since the 1983 B-scale and

2) A jobs program that has kept many employed when under an economic cyclical industry that should have experienced layoffs.

 

[RV4]

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On 5/27/2003 12:57:08 PM KCFlyer wrote:

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On 5/27/2003 1250 PM Buck wrote:


Curious... was your wife in a union?
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Yes...she was a mechanic at NWA.
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No she wasn't, she was an OSM at AA in Tulsa. Not RIF'd as aresult of force majeure invocation by the company like at NWA, but RIF'd via a voluntary lift of job security "without further ratification" by her own representation.

Satire of course, but that appears to be all mangement has to offer now they that have got "theirs" brother.

 

[KCFlyer]

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On 5/27/2003 2:57:00 PM RV4 wrote:

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On 5/27/2003 12:57:08 PM KCFlyer wrote:

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On 5/27/2003 1250 PM Buck wrote:


Curious... was your wife in a union?
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Yes...she was a mechanic at NWA.
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No she wasn''t, she was an OSM at AA in Tulsa. Not RIF''d as aresult of force majeure invocation by the company like at NWA, but RIF''d via a voluntary lift of job security "without further ratification" by her own representation.

Satire of course, but that appears to be all mangement has to offer now they that have got "theirs" brother.

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You miss my point RV4 - let''s say that AMFA is voted in and the company is losing money because of the cyclical nature of the industry. What will the new AMFA members feel when the response from their union is that "this is a cyclical industry and we must downsize". What will the guy who just bought a car or house feel when his union dues have "bought" him the loss of:

All paid holidays
All shift premiums
All paid vacation
All sick time
All benefits, although COBRA was an option at about $500+ per month
All ID travel

 

[FWAAA]

Didn''t UAL just eliminate all overhaul by closing (permanently) the IND and OAK maintenance bases? How is that better than wage concessions via the TWU?