Bankruptcy Would have been worse?

Bob Owens

Veteran
Sep 9, 2002
14,274
6,112
According to a post on the UAL page they had a temporary cut of 14% from the judge. The contract they negotiated actually got them back 1% of that, so they took a 13% cut.

We gave 17.5%
Plus 7 sick days
Plus First two sick days paid at half pay
Plus 5 holidays
Plus holiday pay reduced from 2.5X to 1.5 X.
Plus longevity pay
Plus shift differential
Plus system protection
Plus double time
Plus overtime for overtime in training.
Plus IOD reduced from 80 to 10 days
Plus more but I''m getting ill writing about it.
 
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On 5/26/2003 6:59:42 AM capeman wrote:

I find it hard to accept that UAL gave only 13% and that is it. Believe me, they gave a lot more than that. Why don''t you start with stock and retirement?

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I find it hard to accept that the AA Mechanic would have faired worse in a Bankruptcy Proceeding than what James C. Little agreed to "without further ratification". To top that, there are no guarantees that the AA Mechanic will not face Bankruptcy anyway.
 
It never ceases to amaze me how within days of the concessions, the "clouds were parting", fuel was down, ticket revenue was up, and the employees were asked to forget the concession battle.
 
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On 5/26/2003 6:39:31 AM Bob Owens wrote:
According to a post on the UAL page they had a temporary cut of 14% from the judge. The contract they negotiated actually got them back 1% of that, so they took a 13% cut.
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Didn''t the UA employees also ''give up'' their ESOP? Doesn''t that count as a concession?

Its tough to say how kind a bankruptcy judge would be to AA mechanincs. I''d imagine the paycut would be similar to UA (13%), which I guess is better than what your union ''negotiated'', but I''m sure AA would ask for you to give up more.
 
There is''nt a doubt in my mind that (hypothetically), if AA "came crying", and said that "we need FURTHER concessions, OR ELSE WE''LL HAVE TO CLAIM BK-11", that APA, and the (weak sister) TWU would "successfully" convince the majority of their members TO VOTE YES !!!!!!!

The ABSOLUTE SADDEST PART of a scenario like that is, that this board would be filled with AAers saying that " A second round of concessions really sucks, BUT IT''s BETTER THAN WINDING UP IN BANKRUPTCY COURT" !!!!!

In the eyes of some people, I wonder when "TOO MUCH EXTORTION", would be "TOO MUCH" ????????????

NH/BB''s
 
Well Bob "Half Truth" Owens is at it again! He fails to mention UAL''s health insurance for a family is like $200+ a month now. Also the closure of two of their three maint bases and the thousands of layoffs that accompanied that action. Unlike the layoffs at AA, those jobs are gone FOREVER! Our new system protection date is in 1998. After UAL''s Chap 11 theirs is in 1990!! To hold a mechanics position at UA you now need 13 years seniority! But hey, they got a GREAT deal in Bankrupcy Court!
 
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On 5/26/2003 3:38:00 PM RV4 wrote:


It never ceases to amaze me how within days of the concessions, the "clouds were parting", fuel was down, ticket revenue was up, and the employees were asked to forget the concession battle.

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Really? Ticket revenue is up because the government isn''t taking the tax and the airlines "raised" the fares (invisible to the consumer). You give AMR management way too much credit for their influence on the oil markets. Just look at the pictures on this link [url="http://www.wtrg.com/EnergyCrisis/index.html"]http://www.wtrg.com/EnergyCrisis/index.html[/URL], you don''t even have to read the text....just the pictures tell a story. After looking at them, tell me exactly how AMR managment will be able to keep oil prices down, given the unstable nature of oil prices for the past 30 years? Of course there is an outside chance that AMR might be able to hedge fuel, but that''s a gamble...and it depends on the credit rating (none to good right now, down the toilet if they file bankruptcy).
 
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On 5/26/2003 7:24:51 PM RV4 wrote:




I never said anything about AMR management and their "influence" on these items?

So go blow smoke up someone else''s ass.

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Sorry I must have misunderstood your post. You see...it seemed to me as if you were implying that managment must have been lying about the need for concessions as revenue went up and fuel (a derivative of crude oil) prices came down. All I am saying is that crude oil may skyrocket tomorrow, or it might drop a little more. Bottom line, just asking you to review the graphs to get a feel for how the price of fuel can fluctuate - and then advise a long term strategy that management might use to plan for those fluctuations - and try to think of something other than "shrink the airline" as a strategy.
 
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On 5/26/2003 7:11:31 PM KCFlyer wrote:




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On 5/26/2003 3:38:00 PM RV4 wrote:


It never ceases to amaze me how within days of the concessions, the "clouds were parting", fuel was down, ticket revenue was up, and the employees were asked to forget the concession battle.

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Really? Ticket revenue is up because the government isn''t taking the tax and the airlines "raised" the fares (invisible to the consumer). You give AMR management way too much credit for their influence on the oil markets. Just look at the pictures on this link http://www.wtrg.com/EnergyCrisis/index.html, you don''t even have to read the text....just the pictures tell a story. After looking at them, tell me exactly how AMR managment will be able to keep oil prices down, given the unstable nature of oil prices for the past 30 years? Of course there is an outside chance that AMR might be able to hedge fuel, but that''s a gamble...and it depends on the credit rating (none to good right now, down the toilet if they file bankruptcy).

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I never said anything about AMR management and their "influence" on these items?

So go blow smoke up someone else''s ass.
 
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On 5/26/2003 7:45:38 PM KCFlyer wrote:




All I am saying is that crude oil may skyrocket tomorrow, or it might drop a little more. Bottom line, just asking you to review the graphs to get a feel for how the price of fuel can fluctuate - and then advise a long term strategy that management might use to plan for those fluctuations - and try to think of something other than "shrink the airline" as a strategy.​
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Fair enough,

AMR management should try using that Political Influence to promote an alternative to crude based fuel. Something that will also reduce our dependence on foreign oil and improve our environment.

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On 5/26/2003 3:38:00 PM RV4 wrote:


It never ceases to amaze me how within days of the concessions, the "clouds were parting", fuel was down, ticket revenue was up, and the employees were asked to forget the concession battle.

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Well, the concessions weren''t the only pieces of the puzzle that were necessary to help AA survive outside bankruptcy. Had it not been for the parting clouds (tremendous victory in, and early end to, Iraq war and correspondingly lower oil prices) plus increased revenue - the concessions WOULD NOT have worked without bankruptcy. What you and several others keep whining about ("We are going to file Ch 11 anyway") would have happened.

But for now, AA has a fighting chance of surviving without a bankruptcy filing (which your unions'' outside advisors counseled was preferable to bankruptcy - but what do they know?)

And too bad you didn''t originally sign on to work for UAL. Massive concessions in exchange for now-worthless ESOP stock. Too bad you missed that ride.

Who made more money prior to the latest concessions, UAL or AA mechanics? Maybe the UAL guys gave up a little less because they were already making less?

Yep - it was all a grand conspiracy to bust the unions.
 
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On 5/26/2003 6:03:55 PM AAmech wrote:


Well Bob "Half Truth" Owens is at it again!   He fails to mention UAL''s health insurance for a family is like $200+ a month now.  Also the closure of two of their three maint bases and the thousands of layoffs that accompanied that action.  Unlike the layoffs at AA, those jobs are gone FOREVER!   Our new system protection date is in 1998.  After UAL''s  Chap 11 theirs is in 1990!!  To hold a mechanics position at UA you now need 13 years seniority!  But hey,  they got a GREAT deal in Bankrupcy Court! 

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Well, whatever is left will be up for grabs when AMR files for bankruptcy later this year.
 
I never ceases to amaze me how much certain people long for bankruptcy. They almost sound disappointed that AA didn''t file last month and with each positive development, they sound more and more angry.
 

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