Fleet Service apathy

[pjirish317]

"Tyranny of the Majority" is still tyranny... complete loss of principles in treating fellow "brothers" who pay the same union dues substantially different in terms of work rules and pay. Any Negotiation Committee member who accepted the HAL TA should submit their resignation immediately, in particular, Rich Delinquency who had final say on accepting the TA. I would expect better from those who should be the ethical gate keepers and moral compass of the Membership, instead of ignoring the values of Equal Protection.

So Deems Jester.

Jester,

Typical armchair quaterback. Weren't you a part of the "tyranny of the majority" in 2008? Didn't you vote yes for our current CBA that "sold" out some smaller stations for a few pieces of silver in your pocket? Hypocrite ring a bell for you?

 

[700UW]

Do you even know the job title your running for?

President
& Directing General Chairperson

You make this too easy, lol!

 

[Jester]

Jester,

Typical armchair quaterback. Weren't you a part of the "tyranny of the majority" in 2008? Didn't you vote yes for our current CBA that "sold" out some smaller stations for a few pieces of silver in your pocket? Hypocrite ring a bell for you?

Haven't I answered that question already? Please review what I post instead of insinuating that I have avoided answering your question. Kindly do the favor and desist with the intellectual dishonesty you are foisting upon the Membership in this forum.

You want to speak of REAL "tyrnanny of the majority"... why not discuss how the East was more than willing to sit on its hands in 2008 while the minority West waiting what could be a decade for pay parity?

I answered your question... your turn.

So Volleys Jester.

P.S. By chance, you weren't one of the backstabbers on the HAL Negotiation Committee, were you?

 

[pjirish317]

Haven't I answered that question already? Please review what I post instead of insinuating that I have avoided answering your question. Kindly do the favor and desist with the intellectual dishonesty you are foisting upon the Membership in this forum.

You want to speak of REAL "tyrnanny of the majority"... why not discuss how the East was more than willing to sit on its hands in 2008 while the minority West waiting what could be a decade for pay parity?

I answered your question... your turn.

So Volleys Jester.

P.S. By chance, you weren't one of the backstabbers on the HAL Negotiation Committee, were you?

I must have missed your answer. So I appologize. So can I presume that you were a part of the tyrnanny of the majority that voted in favor of our current CBA then since I missed your answer? And what intellectual dishonesty am I foistering here? You are expecting me to speak for the entire "East" majority? How am I to do that, I do not know every single "East" FSA, so I can only speak for myself here. I voted no to both TA's that were presented, because I thought we could have done better, not to keep the "West" from geting pay parity. How sad that you think that way. And lastly, no, I was not a part of the HA negotiating committee. But funny you use the term "backstabber", isn't that what you did to your fellow FSA's in 2008? You know when you point a finger, there are three pointing back at yourself.

So answers pjirish317

 

[mike33]

Well, if you hire anyone, you go by their references, right. The HAL contract is a great reference to use to show the ND's work.

"Hawaiian Airlines and the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers Clerical Division (IAM-C) announced yesterday that the union’s membership has ratified the negotiated agreement on a new four-year contract by a 75 percent vote. The new contract provides IAM-C’s membership Hawaiian’s largest single work group with increased compensation, while also allowing for operational improvements that benefit the company."

Tim, help me out here ! You keep using HA as a benchmark so, am i wrong in assuming that they wanted this?

"In addition, Brother Delaney made sure that District Officers were assigned at each of our stations on the west coast, and to all of them, a big mahalo.
To Local Lodge 1979 President, Brian Simmonson, to officers and tellers, we appreciate all of their hard work to make this a successful ratification.
Last but not least, we would like to extend a huge mahalo to the company’s negotiating committee, led by V.P. Operations, Blaine Miyasato and Sr. Director, Janis Bumgardner, for their support, participation and understanding in reaching this agreement. Mahalo!"
Your Negotiating Committee —
Jolene Christopherson, Rudy Lacaden, Randy Kauhane
Chief Negotiator Hawaiian Airlines Agreement
Honolulu, Hawaii

 

[mike33]

Any Negotiation Committee member who accepted the HAL TA should submit their resignation immediately, in particular, Rich Delinquency who had final say on accepting the TA. I would expect better from those who should be the ethical gate keepers and moral compass of the Membership, instead of ignoring the values of Equal Protection.

So Deems Jester.

i am assuming the 75 percent vote on the ratification should resign also?


Hmmmmm!

Shouldn't the membership have sent it back if they didn't like it?

 

[IAM Informer]

i am assuming the 75 percent vote on the ratification should resign also?


Hmmmmm!

Shouldn't the membership have sent it back if they didn't like it?

Actually they did . the first T/A went down in flames. The 2nd T/a was one of those take it or leave deals. Rich got that out of Randy's black book on negotiating 101. scare the membership to vote it in

 

[mike33]

Actually they did . the first T/A went down in flames. The 2nd T/a was one of those take it or leave deals. Rich got that out of Randy's black book on negotiating 101. scare the membership to vote it in

OK if you say so........

I dont understand the " Down in Flames " the first time vs "75%" the second...Thats a big swing

 

[Jester]

I must have missed your answer. So I appologize.

I normally don't do other people's homework, but in your case, I will make a rare exception....

And yes, that TWU CBA just wasn't a bad agreement... that was a wretched, awful, terrible arrangement that the West was working under. In fact, it was pretty much comparable to what the P/T FSA are now working under with the HA CBA.

Was the TA a perfect agreement? Not for a second, in particular the outsourcing of stations... but it did provide for 4 years of recall rights, a pension, and a huge pay increase for West which for many came out to $10,000/year which was available to everyone, including those who would be displaced. An extra $10,000 per year in more pay would cause more than a few people to move to another station. However, if you thought about it... if you were working under the old East agreement, what would have been the cut-off in average mainline flights per week to be outsourced? I thought it was pretty much what you have right now, so it wouldn't have save cities like BUF. The TA hurt mostly the West stations, and at those rock bottom wages, the Company couldn't have found cheaper labor by outsourcing compared to the West TWU contract.

But the East didn't care... they had their decent enough agreement and the West would still be waiting for something, or worse yet, it would be working under a deal that RD cut using the HA CBA as a guide. However, I will blame Canale, because he pieced together a deal which allowed the outsourcing of stations where the bar as so high that stations like SNA which still has a fair number of flights could be outsourced, while stations like LAS have a lower cut-off. Also as I understood the situation, some of the stations were basically RJ's (non-mainline flights) which were using West FSAs, thus the TWU wouldn't have provided any protection if the Company decided to outsource.

So Corrects Jester.

So can I presume that you were a part of the tyrnanny of the majority that voted in favor of our current CBA then since I missed your answer? And what intellectual dishonesty am I foistering here? You are expecting me to speak for the entire "East" majority? How am I to do that, I do not know every single "East" FSA, so I can only speak for myself here.

Yes, intellectually dishonest... throw the strawman argument of that you cannot speak for everyone, while that was never the issue in the first place. Honestly, that's pathetic.

Ironically, that which I complained the most about is what you admit to being most guilty about...

I voted no to both TA's that were presented, because I thought we could have done better, not to keep the "West" from geting pay parity. How sad that you think that way.

As such, you were very content to have West wait what might be a decade because you thought there could be a better deal for yourself later? As I made the offer then in 2008... I would have traded pay with any of the East guys with the same number of years, and I'll vote however way desired... Strangely, no takers, as their starting pay was more than my pay after 6 years.

But funny you use the term "backstabber", isn't that what you did to your fellow FSA's in 2008? You know when you point a finger, there are three pointing back at yourself.

Did you also forget that Boss Canale's first attempt failed and the second attempt was a "last, best final offer" as there won't be anymore negotiations at this point... hey, that does sound like the HAL deal! I'll repeat myself... the TA Boss Canale offered was almost as reprehensible as what Rich Delinquency accepted with HAL TA with the latter having the benefit of hindsight from 2008 US TA!

So answers pjirish317

Yes, I hope both you and Rich Delinquency have some answering to do come election time.

So Eviscerates Jester.

 

[pjirish317]

I normally don't do other people's homework, but in your case, I will make a rare exception....




Yes, intellectually dishonest... throw the strawman argument of that you cannot speak for everyone, while that was never the issue in the first place. Honestly, that's pathetic.

I actually can't speak for everyone, and you made it the issue by implying that the "east" wanted to hold the "west" hostage. But whatever.

Ironically, that which I complained the most about is what you admit to being most guilty about...

As such, you were very content to have West wait what might be a decade because you thought there could be a better deal for yourself later? As I made the offer then in 2008... I would have traded pay with any of the East guys with the same number of years, and I'll vote however way desired... Strangely, no takers, as their starting pay was more than my pay after 6 years.

And I voted the way I did because of the outsourcing language, not for better pay, if you must know. And why is it/was it my fault that your pay was the way it was at AWA? Was it not the fault of the Tyranical majority that voted yes to your TWU cba? But wahtever helps you sleep at night.

Did you also forget that Boss Canale's first attempt failed and the second attempt was a "last, best final offer" as there won't be anymore negotiations at this point... hey, that does sound like the HAL deal! I'll repeat myself... the TA Boss Canale offered was almost as reprehensible as what Rich Delinquency accepted with HAL TA with the latter having the benefit of hindsight from 2008 US TA!

And the second T/A was worst than the first. And really at this point it is a non issue if there was/was not going to be any more negotiations. We will never know because the MAJORITY voted to accept it. Done deal.

Yes, I hope both you and Rich Delinquency have some answering to do come election time.

What would I have to answer for come election time may I ask?

So Eviscerates Jester.

 

[pjirish317]

Tim,

You just stated to me that an attorney would handle ALL step 3 hearings. If that is in fact the case, why have
AGC's at all? And how will this attorney travel to all the stations to handle the step 3 hearings? Who pays for the travel? You are doing a great job of fighting the battles for your ticket, but all that shows us is that they think what YOU want them to think, do what YOU want them to do, say what YOU want them to say, because you have proven that if it's not Tim's way it's the highway. Good to see a backbone in your ticket, NOT. You spin everything to your own advantage, and I know I see through it, and I will try to open the eyes of others that have been blinded by your rhetoric. Oh and BTW, i have not asked for the ND's qualifications, I asked for your ticket's qualifications. Why is it so hard to have your AGC canidates tell their experience? Oh, never mind you will just answer for them anyway. But it must make you all warm and fuzzy inside to be the puppet master of your ticket. Did you have them sign a "commitment letter" to have you speak for them?

On another note Tim. Who was on the HA negotiating committee, and who ultimately agreed that the CBA that was negotiated was acceptable to the workers at HA? Were there any US people negotiating that CBA? How about the UA/CO negotiating committee? Are there any US people there? And who will ultimately have the final say, could it be the workers that decide if a good job was done negotiating, and if the terms negotiated are acceptable or not?

Tim,

Cat got your tongue?

Where is the long winded answer?

 

[roabilly]

Ah Tim you make this way too easy:

Course list

Pay Attention to the Staff Programs, I have been there and AGCs, GCs and GLRs receive specialized training.

Advanced Arbitration
Advanced Collective Bargaining
Arbitration Program
Collective Bargaining
Comprehensive Training Program
First Contract
Foundational Skills
Internal Organizing
Local Lodge History Project
National Labor College
Negotiating Defined Contribution Plans
Negotiation Preparation for Bargaining Committees
Orientation and Basic Skills Program
Organizing Program I & II
Pension Fundamentals
Contemporary Issues in Pension Negotiations
Pension - Canadian
Special Topics in Collective Bargaining
U Mass Graduate Degree Program
Union Growth for Local Lodge Leaders

Your ignorance is really showing.

The ones I highlighted are for AGC, GC, GLR, etc....

700...

I cannot believe I used to respect Tim for his knowledge... what a fool I was!

I've had to educate myself... and verify every single claim that Tim has made... I personally sat with an AGC just after he returned from Winpisinger in 2008... and he actually showed me the enormous pile of materials and text books that were used to advance his training and knowledge. Further, virtually every single course heading you have listed above was clearly visible on these materials... I remember thinking to myself... could I have made it through all of this academic training? At the time, I was thinking of running for AGC... and I was very interested in learning what they had to know... and what they had to do.

That is exactly why I brought this up to Tim... because he had completely dismissed previous inquiries about the inevitable time lapse that training HIS AGC's would create, and the cost it would represent to the Membership. Since it did not fit his political agenda... he dismissed it... and attempted to call my bluff by placing the onus on me to prove him wrong.

Tim... I have memory like an elephant when it comes to crap like this... you may as well admit it... you're busted on this Bro!

If anyone would like to verify my assertion regarding extensive education for AGC's and Officers... just view the academics required to hold that position by clicking... HERE!

Further, many of these courses are valued for College Credits...

 

[roabilly]

I have another question for Tim...

Why are you so focused on campaigning on Facebook... could it be your audience is a little less knowledgeable, and more willing to gobble up your preposterous rhetoric on that site?

 

[Jester]

"I actually can't speak for everyone, and you made it the issue by implying that the "east" wanted to hold the "west" hostage. But whatever." -- PJ
Again... more intellectual dishonesty... I never said "hostage" or even implied the word. In fact, "hostage" would be too kind, as it was more of indifference, right, "Brother"?

"And I voted the way I did because of the outsourcing language, not for better pay, if you must know. And why is it/was it my fault that your pay was the way it was at AWA? Was it not the fault of the Tyranical majority that voted yes to your TWU cba? But wahtever helps you sleep at night." --PJ
You continue to prove my point... you are making a decent wage, so screw West, they can wait, right, "Brother"? As for the TWU it was a first step, first agreement, and now that we were one big happy fleet, we should be paid the same, right, "Brother"?

"And the second T/A was worst than the first. And really at this point it is a non issue if there was/was not going to be any more negotiations. We will never know because the MAJORITY voted to accept it. Done deal." -- PJ
Gloss over all you want, but Boss Canale had no interest in going back a 3rd time and when the 2008 recession hit the airlines hard, do you think the Tempe Boys would have been willing to be as generous in the years that followed? So let's ignore the facts and intellectually punt the argumentative football as "we will never know," and pretend you really cared about the state of the West, right, "Brother"?

"What would I have to answer for come election time may I ask?" -- PJ
Maybe your continued blind obedience to the indefensible and your willingness to sell-out the Membership, right, "Brother"?

So Mocks Jester.

 

[roabilly]

"I actually can't speak for everyone, and you made it the issue by implying that the "east" wanted to hold the "west" hostage. But whatever." -- PJ
Again... more intellectual dishonesty... I never said "hostage" or even implied the word. In fact, "hostage" would be too kind, as it was more of indifference, right, "Brother"?

"And I voted the way I did because of the outsourcing language, not for better pay, if you must know. And why is it/was it my fault that your pay was the way it was at AWA? Was it not the fault of the Tyranical majority that voted yes to your TWU cba? But wahtever helps you sleep at night." --PJ
You continue to prove my point... you are making a decent wage, so screw West, they can wait, right, "Brother"? As for the TWU it was a first step, first agreement, and now that we were one big happy fleet, we should be paid the same, right, "Brother"?

"And the second T/A was worst than the first. And really at this point it is a non issue if there was/was not going to be any more negotiations. We will never know because the MAJORITY voted to accept it. Done deal." -- PJ
Gloss over all you want, but Boss Canale had no interest in going back a 3rd time and when the 2008 recession hit the airlines hard, do you think the Tempe Boys would have been willing to be as generous in the years that followed? So let's ignore the facts and intellectually punt the argumentative football as "we will never know," and pretend you really cared about the state of the West, right, "Brother"?

"What would I have to answer for come election time may I ask?" -- PJ
Maybe your continued blind obedience to the indefensible and your willingness to sell-out the Membership, right, "Brother"?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WOW… Mr. Jester…

What happened to the stoic, detached, and unbiased Jester of yore? After observing the rambling diatribe above… it appears as if you are finally succumbing to the stressful complexities of propaganda exploitation in the proxy sense!

You know exactly what I mean don’t you!

So casually ascertains...

BroBilly