Nov/Dec 2013 Pilot Discussion

[Piedmont1984]

I disagree.  Assuming Judge Silver follows the law, i.e. the RLA, McC-B, and contract law, there is no basis at all for a "west seat" at the SLI table with the APA.  McC-B requires the CBAs to work it out, and the only CBA (per the RLA) for the USAirways pilots is USAPA.  Silver may want the west to have a seat (and I personally think it might be a good idea), but she will follow the applicable laws or be overturned on appeal if she doesn't.  The west group is already legally and exclusively represented for collective bargaining issues, and the McC-B recognizes that, and nothing else.

If I'm wrong, I would prefer to owe you a beer rather than eat crow thank you very much. I think Silver is more inclined to interpret rather than strictly follow the law. I believe it's called judicial activism, as opposed to strict constructionism (outside of constitutional law). She has already said and implied a great deal to indicate how she would rule absent the previous 9th decision. I would be surprised if she reversed herself on every disputed issue on which she has opined. The 3 party issue is something she can give the west and provides her with at least some legal cover. The west argument - that USAPA, while being the legal and exclusive bargaining agent, does not in reality and with respect to the east/west SLI dispute have the best interests of the west class in mind - has some merit. And this has been echoed by the company and underscored by USAPA's own constitutional language and numerous communiques on the subject over the years.

 

[Keroseneuser]

I can see her ruling something to that effect also.   I don't really have a problem with a 3 way, though I do not really think such a thing would survive a review by the 9th.
 
Really the only thing a 3 way would do is probably guarantee that the US AA SLI goes to arbitration.    I think there is a chance of a negotiated agreement with APA, but having the west with their "NIC or Nothing" stance will wipe that option out.
 
By the time it gets to that stage, almost 10 years after US AWA I suppose it is possible that a panel of 3 arbitrators could require the NIC,  but given that it would be 13000 interested in one thing and 1600 interested in the NIC I don't see that as a real possibility.    I think they would take the route of what each list looks like now and what they are flying and go from there.  As much as the NIC crowd would like to believe, the APA is not going to have any interest in putting younger pilots into USAirways captain seats prior to integrating with their pilots.   Right now they are looking at a east pilot group where all of the widebody and most of the narrowbody captains are in their last few years prior to retirement.  Putting a bunch of f/o's hired post 9/11 with 20+ years till retirement in the left seat instantly is not in their best interest. 
 
With everybody on one pay scale, the retirements, and the increased pilot requirements from the new regs,  I don't think it is really going to matter at the end of the day anyhow.

 

[end_of_alpa]

 
 
I also write for USA Today.
 
America West, US Airways merger goes for a tight fit
By Dan Reed and Barbara De Lollis, USA TODAY
 
America West Airlines said Thursday it will acquire US Airways, saving the beleaguered carrier from the possibility of a bankruptcy liquidation.........
 

Hey DUMBA$$ Westicle:  LOOK HERE!  More in your face!  This is from the guy that is going to be THE NEW CEO OF AMERICAN.
 
 

CHARLOTTE CREW NEWS
FLIGHT ATTENDANTS
20 SEPTEMBER 2011(excerpt)
 
WHO BOUGHT WHOM?
 
SPEAKER: Thank you. Just a quick question.
 
Going back five years ago, I'm a West coast guy, and I do a lot of commuting in and out of the West. And 
 
I'm just misled constantly from the West and the East. I mean, we are definitely two separate airlines, 
 
still.
 
Now, I hear a lot of the West people talking five years ago during this merger, so they say, was there 
 
money exchanged? Did -- US Airways and America West, who bought who? Who merged?
 
Because I hear it constantly from the West, Well, we bought you, so we should control you.
 
So who owns who?
 
MR. PARKER: Who says that to you?
 
SPEAKER: I hear it constantly from the West crews.
 
MR. PARKER: All right. Well, tell them to call me.
 
Let me tell you, look -- that's not accurate.
 
SPEAKER: Was there money exchanged? I thought it was just a simple merger.
 
MR. PARKER: I'm happy to explain it. I was -- I would like to hope we were past this, but since it -- 
 
SPEAKER: (Unintelligible.)
 
MR. PARKER: Yeah, no, I know. This is not meant to be negative on your question. I just wish we still 
 
weren't having to go through this because I don't think it matters is the real answer.
 
But I'm happy to go through what did happen if it helps.
 
What happened is in 2005, first off, at the risk of offending people, US Airways was on the verge of 
 
liquidation, not bankruptcy. We were already in bankruptcy. We were going, I believe without a merger, 
 
would have liquidated. So be it.
 
I think that's where this some of this comes from with the "we saved you" stuff. But you got to finish 
 
the story.
 
USAir -- America West was not in dramatically better shape. While we weren't on the verge of, you know, 
 
going away liquidating, as I have said a number of times, I believe without a merger -- well, let me tell 
 
you. By putting the two companies together, a lot of new money came in is the answer to your question.
 
America West did not have the money to go fund the merger or anything close to it. And, indeed, I think 
 
America West standalone -- this is -- this gets some America West people upset because, you know, they -- 
 
anyway, whatever reason.
 
But my view is, and a highly educated view on this point, is that America West would have been bankrupt 
 
by the end of 2005.
 
If you recall, by the end of 2005, Delta and Northwest both filed, and I don't think America West could 
 
have -- I'm pretty sure -- I'm actually, virtually certain that America West would have filed bankruptcy 
 
because we didn't have enough cash to make it through the winter in that environment.
 
So -- and then more importantly, as it relates to America West, the reason the merger was so important to 
 
America West is America West was an airline that lived off a cost structure advantage.
 
Much like I describe to US Airways employees now, how we don't have the same revenue generating 
 
capabilities as American, Delta, and United, who are bigger than us. America West had that in spades.
 
A Phoenix hub never had the ability to generate the kind of revenues US Airways did, for example. But the 
 
airline survived 25 years by having much lower costs, and those lower costs almost entirely labor based.
 
So what had happened is, is you, you know, looking around the world, here at US Airways, for example, had 
 
gotten its labor costs through two bankruptcies and a lot of pain down to matching America West.
 
That did not look like a good formula for the America West -- for America West Airlines. You have an 
 
airline now that has, not the same ability to generate revenues, and the same costs as the guys who can 
 
generate a lot more revenues than you. Those airlines go away.
 
So whether or not America West would have filed, you know, in late 2005, like I believe, that airline, 
 
I'm certain, wouldn't have been able to stand alone on its own in today's environment. You know, much 
 
like Frontier, was very -- it's very similar I think to America West.
 
You know, small West Coast, whole -- entirely labor-cost-based cost advantage. And, you know, Frontier 
 
went bankrupt. They are still floating around somewhere, but, you know, they are a fifth of the size they 
 
used to be. And I think that's the best I think America West could have done on its own.
 
So the merger helped both of us, and in a huge way. I don't think America West would have made it on its 
 
own. I'm certain US Airways wouldn't have. And with the merger, what we were able to do -- you know, 
 
which, again, I -- I think we should all feel good about -- we were able to go convince people that, 
 
while these two airlines on their own are having trouble, we can put them together and build a real 
 
airline, and all we need is cash.
 
And so will you, Mr. Investor, invest in this?
 
Now, we found some people who wanted to do that because they didn't want us to go away, like GE, who had 
 
a lot of airplanes leased to us, and Airbus, who had a lot of airplanes on order to both companies. So 
 
they put in monies because they didn't want to see us go away.
 
But we found some other, you know, just true equity investors, you know, stockholders that said, yeah, 
 
that looks like something that will work. I'll invest in that.
 
So the money that came to fund the merger didn't exist, and neither airline could have raised it on their 
 
own. It only came from the power of the merger.
 
So the merger saved both of us. So if anybody tells you, We saved you, vice versa, they are wrong. We 
 
saved each other. And we saved each other by merging the two companies and building a stronger airline.
 
And, again, I haven't had to say this in a few years, but I have said it a lot. And the story has been 
 
entirely consistent. So it's a little frustrating to me to have to keep saying it because I, like you, 
 
get tired of hearing this stuff.
 
It's just absolutely.
 
SPEAKER: That's exactly what it was.
 
MR. PARKER: It's just absolutely inaccurate.
 
So, anyway, hopefully this will help. We have filmed it. People can watch it, but that's what happened.
 
SPEAKER: (Unintelligible).
 
MR. PARKER: But, anyway, but that's the point. But, anyway, the answer is, you know, we -- we needed each 
 
other. And I know we still got a lot of work to do. As Eddie says, we haven't quite gotten the marriage 
 
completed.
 
But, you know, if we hadn't gotten the engagement done, we wouldn't be here.
 
SPEAKER: (Inaudible).
 
MR. PARKER: So -- all right. Anyway, thanks for asking.
 
SPEAKER: Thank you.
 

As usual Westicle fantasy land is the best they will ever get.

 

[nycbusdriver]

So.. You predict, "Not guilty of DFR, all plaintiff and company motions denied." ?  
 
That would have two things going for it... it would be according to the law, and it would be expedient for the merger.  

 
I think Silver will wait until the POR is signed, making the entire case moot.  Then she will dismiss the case on that basis without really making any ruling on the merits of anything.  Just like the Ninth in Addington I, she won't bother with merits because she doesn't have to when there is no case before her.

 

[Piedmont1984]

So.. You predict, "Not guilty of DFR, all plaintiff and company motions denied." ?  
 
That would have two things going for it... it would be according to the law, and it would be expedient for the merger.  

BTW, I'm not predicting what the appeal will produce, only what Silver will rule.

 

[nycbusdriver]

The west argument - that USAPA, while being the legal and exclusive bargaining agent, does not in reality and with respect to the east/west SLI dispute have the best interests of the west class in mind - has some merit. And this has been echoed by the company and underscored by USAPA's own constitutional language and numerous communiques on the subject over the years.

 
Sorry.  Did you miss the ruling of the Ninth on Addington I?  They addressed those concerns and basically said no case without a joint contract.  They, and Silver, could not really know the future and what USAPA would do when the pen went to the paper.  Nothing in the USAPA constitution contravenes law.  Until there is a contract in place as a result of the TA process, the Ninth said there is no proof that USAPA does not have the "best interests" of the west class in mind.  And, when the POR is signed, the MOU nullifies that TA.
 
Silver can be as much as an activist as she likes.  But after seeing the Wake debacle, and how the Ninth thinks, she will not set herself up to be overturned so easily.  As they say:  "Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice; shame on me."  

 

[nycbusdriver]

Right now they are looking at a east pilot group where all of the widebody and most of the narrowbody captains are in their last few years prior to retirement.  Putting a bunch of f/o's hired post 9/11 with 20+ years till retirement in the left seat instantly is not in their best interest. 
 

 
BINGO!  The APA pilots aren't crazy.  They know what would benefit themselves most, and it is NOT the Nicolau list in place at USAirways.  Taking on DOH or LOS with fences would mean very short term pain for decades of fast progression.  The Nicolau abomination would put some mighty roadblocks on that progress.

 

[Keroseneuser]

According to quick search online AA's current most junior capt is a 1993 hire on the md-80 in LGA.    The LAST thing they are going to want is the NIC list included into this merger.   At the end of the day a NIC integration of our lists prior to integration with APA would put that 1993 MD-80 captain junior to a bunch of guys hired post 9/11.....I cannot see the APA even considering that as an option.

 

[EastUS1]

MB is NOT.....I repeat....NOT "collective bargaining". The fake union has NO BUSINESS attempting to represent the interest of a group they so obviously have no desire to aid in any way shape or form. The only desire of the fake union is to force the West to compensate the East for their horrible career choices. Not happening.

 
I'd think the question here's purely one of legalities, versus any of our emotional notions, and solely what's possible and/or likely within the former Res. I can't help but see the ready potential for actionable issues arising from essentially establishing a defacto union-within-a-union through issuing negotiating seats to the west here. Personally?...I've no selfish, or even reasonable concerns either way, save for the invevitably poisonous effects it'd have, by way of virtually compelling arbitration, as oppossed to reasonable dialog and possibly successful negotiation with the APA...and all just for the sake of artificially advancing a small minority. What will eventually transpire over time in courts is anyone's guess, as is and has always been the case. I'd expect to see an appeal filed if the west is given a seperate seat. For whatever east-west "Nyaah, Nyaah" concerns are involved; it's no longer the case that "You can live on LOA93 forever!" affords even the slightest concern, and none out east now have, imo, ANY reasons whatsoever for concerning themselves with how long legal proceedings take. Add to that the fact that no/nada/zip/zero reason whatsoever exists for the APA to have the slightest love for the nic, and...well....?

 

[EastUS1]

 
BINGO!  The APA pilots aren't crazy.  They know what would benefit themselves most, and it is NOT the Nicolau list in place at USAirways.  Taking on DOH or LOS with fences would mean very short term pain for decades of fast progression.  The Nicolau abomination would put some mighty roadblocks on that progress.

 
Indeed sir, and I'd further note that "with fences" pretty much precludes the APA from having even ANY reasonable concerns for the longer term. Ourselves and most of our fellows will shortly be gone.
 
Whatever else can be said of this whole fiasco; at least we'll be able to leave knowing we never broke the faith and sold out any of our "junior" comrades for our own convenience. I'll sleep just fine with that knowledge, as I'm sure you will as well. 🙂

 

[EastUS1]

 I think Silver is more inclined to interpret rather than strictly follow the law.

 
Unfortunately agreed there '84. This will be interesting to see play out. I'm guessing an appeal's forthcoming from whatever side's most offended by her eventual ruling.
 
A lesser consideration for those now directly involved is the issue of precedence. Who in labor really wants to see an environment within which any judge can instantly establish defacto, and entirely imposed versus elected, "unions"-within-unions?

 

[Phoenix]

Hey, I'm soliciting predictions - not prevarications 🙂

 
 
Ok, she follows the law with some hand wringing, some words of warning, and sprinkles in some apparent phrases that can be excerpted as proof of hope for the West... like she did in the DJ.  She has to throw the West her best words of consolation.  
 
The West faithful will grasp at these and Leonidas LLC will begin to hobble.  The faithful monthly donators will quietly withdraw their credit card authorizations, and  a new meet and greet will be cautiously considered.   😀
 
Polsinelli let Marty "retire" because they saw the writing on the wall.  IMHO.

 

[EastUS1]

According to quick search online AA's current most junior capt is a 1993 hire on the md-80 in LGA.    The LAST thing they are going to want is the NIC list included into this merger.   At the end of the day a NIC integration of our lists prior to integration with APA would put that 1993 MD-80 captain junior to a bunch of guys hired post 9/11.....I cannot see the APA even considering that as an option.

 
I'll take that a half-step further and note that I can't honestly even begin to imagine ANY reason the APA could possibly have for embracing the nic. Perhaps some devout "spartan" might now step up and explain just what possible reasons they would, or even might have for doing so?

 

[EastUS1]

 
I see we've given up on the Spartans and Dire Wolves, and now into the sports analogies.  Yes...whatever two professional football teams did last night (I have no idea, and could not care less) is certainly apt to the argument you are making about two pilots groups. 
 
EastUS1 is right....we just can't make this stuff up.  Every time we think we have you westicles figured out, you make something else up that's INCREDIBLY stupid.  

 
That sorry "spartan" lad clearly lives only inside Fantasyland for now, and not the real world, where one very sadly, sometimes attends the funerals of both fine Aviators and well respected friends.....

 

[Black Swan]

Let's play legal expert.
Judge Silver will express her sympathy with the plaintiff's grievance and her strong frustration at being constrained by the law, the RLA and the 9th Circuit's previous ruling and interpretation. However, the only consolation she can offer to the west class is a seat with representation at the M/B table. She will also offer her Informal interpretation of how the concept of LUP must be balanced against the concept of WRR (wide range of reasonableness) and again conclude that the union did not act outside the bounds of WRR. She will rule that neither MOU para4 nor para10h meet the plaintiff's definition of a Trojan Horse and that both provisions, particularly 10h were adequately vetted.
Finally, the MOU, although a contract, is not the JCBA which will be pursued in accordance with the existing timeline following the effective date.
Court order - a 3way, no Nic and a SLI to be determined by M/B.
'84

She CANNOT legally carve the West out and grant it class status. She cannot legally go around the NMB on this issue. You need to read RLA law and procedure, as well as her. There are rules and regulations which specifically pertain to unions and their operation, as well as interaction with the company. She cannot even tell a union how to order a seniority list, so if she does ANY class or Nic order she WILL be corrected.
Reading some of the opinions about an AZ judge having the power to interfere with a legally elected union and telling it what list to submit is absolutely wrong.