Nov/Dec 2013 Pilot Discussion

[Reed Richards]

Part of the current west pilots unripe dfr claim is the "Kirby Proposal" was just as good as the MOU.  Not true.
 
http://www.unbiasedfacts.org/AAASection3-Company-5-8-07.pdf

[SIZE=14pt]The "Kirby" was one of the most worthless and inane proposals ever made to our pilots. It completely gave up Scope and COC.  It was junk, a mere quip by Kirby the West has latched onto, having never had a real airline pilot contract, ever.  Leave it to the lowest paid forever West Class to promote "Kirby" in any form. Lest they forget, the very leverage that just got them (finally, after almost 30 years) major airline pilot wages was the hard earned Section I of the East contract. That would indeed still be LOA 93. We would have been to better wages much sooner had the West Class not insisted a 17 year pilot should go behind a new hire.  Too bad we had to keep us all low paid to remedy that, but it was all worth it.  RR[/SIZE]

 

[Claxon]

[SIZE=14pt]The "Kirby" was one of the most worthless and inane proposals ever made to our pilots. It completely gave up Scope and COC.  It was junk, a mere quip by Kirby the West has latched onto, having never had a real airline pilot contract, ever.  Leave it to the lowest paid forever West Class to promote "Kirby" in any form. Lest they forget, the very leverage that just got them (finally, after almost 30 years) major airline pilot wages was the hard earned Section I of the East contract. That would indeed still be LOA 93. We would have been to better wages much sooner had the West Class not insisted a 17 year pilot should go behind a new hire.  Too bad we had to keep us all low paid to remedy that, but it was all worth it.  RR[/SIZE]

 
 
http://www.unbiasedfacts.org/Real-JNC-TermSheets.pdf

 

[Claxon]

The (hey USAPA left the "Kirby proposal" on the table)  used lately in the america west pilots dfr legal briefs?  The disdain of the "Kirby" was backed at that time by the america west pilots alpa mec. They were party to the fight against it and now claim victim status because the "Kirby" was not accepted?
 
 
"MEC NewsDirect
 
January 31, 2008
 
A AAA/AWA Joint Chairman's message has been emailed to pilots and posted
under What's New. The text of the letter is below:
 
AAA-AWA MEC Joint Chairman’s Message
 
January 31, 2008
 
Fellow America West and US Airways pilots,
 
Today, the AAA and AWA Steering Committees and their respective merger and
negotiating teams will begin talks about the issues separating our pilot groups in
order to produce a comprehensive contract counterproposal for both MECs to
review. As we have said in the past, any comprehensive proposal must adequately
address seniority implementation issues and all open JNC issues for both pilot
groups.
 
The Steering Committees are meeting at a neutral site, and to give this process
the best chance for success, both sides have agreed to a communications blackout
during this time. As a result of this policy, our pilots should understand that any
hearsay information floating around is unsubstantiated, and should be treated as
rumor only.
 
If the AAA and AWA Steering Committees are able to successfully produce a
comprehensive contract counterproposal, it will first be reviewed by both MECs. If
both MECs approve the final product, JNC negotiations would resume with
management as we counter the infamous “Kirby proposal” that we received on
May 8, 2007.
 
If a TA is achieved through joint negotiations and is subsequently approved by
both MECs it will be sent to each pilot group for ratification. The rank and file
members of this union will be the ultimate arbiters of any agreement.
 
There is much at stake here for both pilot groups. None of your union volunteers
takes the challenges ahead of us lightly. Your MEC leadership and the Steering
Committees all appreciate your patience while we work through these very
difficult issues.
 
Fraternally,
 
Captain Jack Stephan
Chairman, AAA MEC
 
Captain John McIlvenna
Chairman, AWA MEC"

 

[Res Judicata]

The "Kirby" was one of the most worthless and inane proposals ever made to our pilots. It completely gave up Scope and COC.  It was junk, a mere quip by Kirby the West has latched onto, having never had a real airline pilot contract, ever.  Leave it to the lowest paid forever West Class to promote "Kirby" in any form. Lest they forget, the very leverage that just got them (finally, after almost 30 years) major airline pilot wages was the hard earned Section I of the East contract. That would indeed still be LOA 93. We would have been to better wages much sooner had the West Class not insisted a 17 year pilot should go behind a new hire.  Too bad we had to keep us all low paid to remedy that, but it was all worth it.  RR

You scabs would have earned hundreds of millions of more dollars had you not illegally walked away from negotiations. Now, you're getting the Nic shoved up your asses with an additional decade of lost pay. Only you scab idiots could all agree to that plan! You get what you pay for I guess.

 

[traderjake]

[SIZE=14pt] We would have been to better wages much sooner had the West Class not insisted a 17 year pilot should go behind a new hire.  Too bad we had to keep us all low paid to remedy that, but it was all worth it.  [/SIZE]

 
Sure it was pal, and the merger's dead.
 
You're going to see a final result very close to the Nicolau Award. 

 

[nycbusdriver]

 
 
If Silver gives a third seat away, I would think that opens a whole can of worms.   I would want a seat there myself for me and my buddies.   Anyone else want a seat there to have a say?   How hard to get a class certified?    HAHA

 
I think Silver should designate a third seat at the table for the west pilots, and appoint Mike Cleary to sit there!
 
(Furiously digging my foxhole!  :LOL: )

 

[nycbusdriver]

Don't run off RR. You've had a pretty good track record and I think most are glad you were wrong on that one!

 
Agreed.

 

[nycbusdriver]

[SIZE=14pt]The "Kirby" was one of the most worthless and inane proposals ever made to our pilots. It completely gave up Scope and COC.  It was junk, a mere quip by Kirby the West has latched onto, having never had a real airline pilot contract, ever.  Leave it to the lowest paid forever West Class to promote "Kirby" in any form. Lest they forget, the very leverage that just got them (finally, after almost 30 years) major airline pilot wages was the hard earned Section I of the East contract. That would indeed still be LOA 93. We would have been to better wages much sooner had the West Class not insisted a 17 year pilot should go behind a new hire.  Too bad we had to keep us all low paid to remedy that, but it was all worth it.  RR[/SIZE]

 
The Kirby proposal was a blessing in disguise for the east pilot group.  Had Kirby come forward with a realistic proposal with significant improvements in the contract, both pilot groups MIGHT have agreed to it, i.e. the ever-elusive "joint contract."  If that joint contract had been in place before the unprofessional, vindictive George Nicolau "awarded," the Nicolau would have been the third criterion to complete the merger for the pilot groups.
 
Kirby's joke proposal saved the east from the Nicolau.  Be grateful.

 

[Phoenix]

[SIZE=medium]The Reed Richards’  theorem has been rendered moot.  Dang, just when I was finally going to show Victor I could finally get that Dr. rating!  The West can no longer use our low pay to counteract their sadness over the end of the NIC.[/SIZE]
 
...
 

 
 

You scabs would have earned hundreds of millions of more dollars had you not........ Only you scab idiots could all agree to that plan! 

 
 
The RR theorem is still alive and well, its just employed retrospectively.    But of course it is amplified by ad hominem.... because integrity matters in Sparta, and during lie detector tests.   🙂

 

[Crzipilot]

You scabs would have earned hundreds of millions of more dollars had you not illegally walked away from negotiations. Now, you're getting the Nic shoved up your asses with an additional decade of lost pay. Only you scab idiots could all agree to that plan! You get what you pay for I guess.

 
 
Just running the numbers real quick for TOS f/o.  You can do the same for Capt and see if you get hundreds and millions...
 
Proposed May '07 So say it went into effect '08. Grp II f/o in '12 would pay 100/hr. doubtful a new contract would be had in 2 yrs and doubtful there would be a 20% raise to match mou '14 pay.

In exchange for a 15/hr pay raise over 4 years, scope would have been gutted, snap back pay provisions would have been lost etc etc

I think the mou was a better deal in the long run.

These millions the west speaks of sounds like our old Davey Dollars.

Under the Kirby we would have seen the following raises by year.

08 11k
09 11k
11 12k
12 13k
13 15k

A total of 62k by end of '12. Then another 60k by end of '16
Total of 122k.

MOU on the other hand:

'13 30k
'14 40k
'15 41k
'16 52k

So 163k by end of '16 an extra 40k. (Oh and the 40million signing bonus)

Not to mention, we actually got something for the Change of Control provisions, scope etc etc.

And biggest of all.....the NIC is not in effect, so those long time downgraded f/o's are capturing their Capt seats, from the EAST retirements that are occuring. And the West gets to keep their retirements.....

Seems fair.

 

[EastUS1]

You scabs .....

 
Shouldn't that more properly be presented as "you'se"?...And why such boundless hostility since "Now, you're getting the Nic shoved up your asses.."? 😉

 

[EastUS1]

 
 
Just running the numbers real quick for TOS f/o.  You can do the same for Capt and see if you get hundreds and millions...
 
Under the Kirby we would have seen the following raises by year.

08 11k
09 11k
11 12k
12 13k
13 15k

A total of 62k by end of '12. Then another 60k by end of '16
Total of 122k.

Indeed. "You scabs would have earned hundreds of millions of more dollars..." must have originated from the very same accounting department that forecasted "Billions in damages", one must suppose.

 

[Phoenix]

Just running the numbers real quick for TOS f/o.  You can do the same for Capt and see if you get hundreds and millions...
 
Proposed May '07 So say it went into effect '08. Grp II f/o in '12 would pay 100/hr. doubtful a new contract would be had in 2 yrs and doubtful there would be a 20% raise to match mou '14 pay.
In exchange for a 15/hr pay raise over 4 years, scope would have been gutted, snap back pay provisions would have been lost etc etc
I think the mou was a better deal in the long run.
These millions the west speaks of sounds like our old Davey Dollars.
Under the Kirby we would have seen the following raises by year.
08 11k
09 11k
11 12k
12 13k
13 15k
A total of 62k by end of '12. Then another 60k by end of '16
Total of 122k.
MOU on the other hand:
'13 30k
'14 40k
'15 41k
'16 52k
So 163k by end of '16 an extra 40k. (Oh and the 40million signing bonus)
Not to mention, we actually got something for the Change of Control provisions, scope etc etc.
And biggest of all.....the NIC is not in effect, so those long time downgraded f/o's are capturing their Capt seats, from the EAST retirements that are occuring. And the West gets to keep their retirements.....
Seems fair.

That is a rational, unemotional point. RezNicClearAquaUHaul won't be able to process that. 😀

 

[Phoenix]

Indeed. "You scabs would have earned hundreds of millions of more dollars..." must have originated from the very same accounting department that forecasted "Billions in damages", one must suppose.

Maybe the same place TheWorldTravler Delta fan gets his info. 😀

 

[flyingskier]

Just running the numbers real quick for TOS f/o.  You can do the same for Capt and see if you get hundreds and millions...
 
Proposed May '07 So say it went into effect '08. Grp II f/o in '12 would pay 100/hr. doubtful a new contract would be had in 2 yrs and doubtful there would be a 20% raise to match mou '14 pay.

In exchange for a 15/hr pay raise over 4 years, scope would have been gutted, snap back pay provisions would have been lost etc etc

I think the mou was a better deal in the long run.

These millions the west speaks of sounds like our old Davey Dollars.

Under the Kirby we would have seen the following raises by year.

08 11k
09 11k
11 12k
12 13k
13 15k

A total of 62k by end of '12. Then another 60k by end of '16
Total of 122k.

MOU on the other hand:

'13 30k
'14 40k
'15 41k
'16 52k

So 163k by end of '16 an extra 40k. (Oh and the 40million signing bonus)

Not to mention, we actually got something for the Change of Control provisions, scope etc etc.

And biggest of all.....the NIC is not in effect, so those long time downgraded f/o's are capturing their Capt seats, from the EAST retirements that are occuring. And the West gets to keep their retirements.....

Seems fair.

Crzi,

Good synopsis, in addition under the Kirby we would have lost the min East/West fleet and Parker would have downsized PHX when they closed LAS and displaced hundreds of Westies to East bases. Even if that didn't happen, hundreds of Westies would have bid East because the PHX hub is so limited in growth and attrition opportunities.

Thanks to the beauty of SAP and my continuously improving seniority, this is the fifth year in a row I have off Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Years. Would not have happened under the Kirby. That is priceless!!

Skier