OCT/NOV 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[jetjok1]

No surprise... the company is again grandstanding in the courts and hiding behind their skirts to avoid their responsibility to negotiate with USAPA.

Now the company has come up with the novel idea that a failure of negotiations between AOL and USAPA is proof that the 9th was wrong, as if the 9th ever expected or required AOL and USAPA to negotiate, which the 9th never did.

The 9th NEVER foresaw or expected the West and East to negotiate anything or come up with a solution outside of the normal ratification process that was yet to be seen until AFTER a RATIFICATION.
The 9th laid out the road ahead and the company is still running from it. The Company and USAPA negotiate, a JCBA is ratified by ALL the pilots, any complaints are then ripe, the merits get evaluated according to the SCOTUS DFR standards.

But now the company wants to silently shirk their responsibility to negotiate by getting the courts to do what they have said repeatedly that they won't do. NO INTERFERENCE during negotiations between the company and USAPA, no RLA interference. NONE. Quit hiding.

These guys are clowns. Where is Fodase when you need him.

Now that's funny!

 

[jetjok1]

Even when "USAPA" is not required to do so....

Man you're an idiot. When has USAPA done anything for the west out of courtesy? No, USAPA is making an offer because it knows the company isn't going to touch your list without immunity - which it doesn't have.

Like I said a few pages back, if this AA merger falls through, you'll hit the 10 year mark on LOA93 easily and then some.

And your problem is?

 

[Metroyet]

Then USAPA can sue the company for not bargaining with their union agent. After Silver gave the greenlight. There is more chance of getting a piece of the company by the East pilots than the West now. The Nicolau is not a requirement and if the company tries to do it, we go after them hard.

You guys can't get a piece of a frigging crew meal. the threat of AOL has the company and USAPA pinned down. No amount of crying will change that fact. S22 isn't negotiable. Literally. Nic is the only way fwd.

 

[mrbreeze]

With the latest legal episodes.....

IMHO, USAPA, at this point, needs to put out a list that is as fair as possible for the WHOLE pilot group ( which may take some time to put together) and let us vote on it, as the pilot group they represent.....not what each faction of Reps want.

Obviously there is going to be no give on either side, legally.....so let's have a proposal and vote on it. Then the company has no reason to delay anything from this point forward.

I don't believe that all the East pilots will be diehard DOH voters, just the same as all West pilots will be diehard NIC voters.

We, as a pilot group need to find the middle. And I don't want to hear "only DOH is it" or "only the NIC is it". That's the BS that is killing us all.

We as the pilot group need to get the control back on this issue....not the courts or what the company files with the courts. The company loves this and will #### with us forever if they have the chance.



breeze

 

[luvn737s]

No, put in the Nic ( in a reasonably good T/A) and allow it to be voted down at least twice to prove that it is unratifiable. Once that happens, you have a reason to convene something that can be ratified. If it isn't the NIC, it will be blocked in court but at least USAPA will have some kind of defense, no matter how feeble, to bring to the courtroom.

But if the Nic passes (and those who are ready for the benefits of an improved contract will vote YES)then this whole mess is behind us. USAPA must pledge to remain neutral regarding recommendations with respect to the TA to avoid influencing the vote. A tall order I know...

 

[Metroyet]

With the latest legal episodes.....

IMHO, USAPA, at this point, needs to put out a list that is as fair as possible for the WHOLE pilot group ( which may take some time to put together) and let us vote on it, as the pilot group they represent.....not what each faction of Reps want.

Obviously there is going to be no give on either side, legally.....so let's have a proposal and vote on it. Then the company has no reason to delay anything from this point forward.

I don't believe that all the East pilots will be diehard DOH voters, just the same as all West pilots will be diehard NIC voters.

We, as a pilot group need to find the middle. And I don't want to hear "only DOH is it" or "only the NIC is it". That's the BS that is killing us all.

We as the pilot group need to get the control back on this issue....not the courts or what the company files with the courts. The company loves this and will #### with us forever if they have the chance.



breeze

That's called "buyers remorse". Too bad. You picked a fight...you got one. Now you get to pay for it.

 

[Piedmont1984]

mrbreeze

Good post. The merger committee is soliciting input from the pilots. Below is what I sent them.
_________________________________________________


[background=transparent]In my interaction with west pilots I have come to the conclusion that they fear and abhor a DOH based seniority regime as much as we abhor the Nicolau Award.[/background]

[background=transparent]Time spent on furlough is certainly difficult, but many decided not to return when recalled and never regretted their decision. Furlough time cannot be equated with active service time. The west pilots, in their view and with some justification, have been prosecuted and persecuted by a larger east group. Now we wish to discuss negotiating a consensual compromise solution.[/background]

[background=transparent]So first, we must be willing to do exactly what we ask of them. We would like them to abandon the Nic, therefore we must abandon DOH. Secondly, the west pilots, unlike the east, have nowhere to migrate to in the event of a PHX downsizing. The C&R's need to be strengthened in order to protect them in the event PHX shrinks further, particularly in a merger scenario. Finally, and perhaps most important, the west needs to feel they can enter into discussions or negotiations as an equal on the issue of seniority. They need to be granted extraordinary, one time authority and autonomy on the issue of seniority.[/background]

Go back in your minds to the day before the Nicolau Award was released. Many of us expected and would have been satisfied with the arbitrator reaching a solution midway between our respective positions. A truly fair seniority regime leaves both sides equally satisfied or dissatisfied. Neither USAPA's DOH with C&R's nor the flawed Nicolau Award achieves that goal.

Good Luck

 

[HPearlyretiree]

Hey Easties, I figured you would all be out at the pumpkin patch tonite.

 

[mrbreeze]

To Piedmont 1984....I like your idea.

To Luvin737s and Metroyet....as they say, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

breeze

 

[AAviator]

delete

 

[Move2CLT]

With the latest legal episodes.....

IMHO, USAPA, at this point, needs to put out a list that is as fair as possible for the WHOLE pilot group ( which may take some time to put together) and let us vote on it, as the pilot group they represent.....not what each faction of Reps want.

Ahh, yes. Arbitration was a bit too fair so lets let one side make up the list for both sides and then let the side that put together the list AND that has the majority vote on the lost it created.

God damn breeze, you've pegged the moron meter on full MORON!

Obviously there is going to be no give on either side, legally.....so let's have a proposal and vote on it. Then the company has no reason to delay anything from this point forward.

No. And we don't vote on SLIs alone.

I don't believe that all the East pilots will be diehard DOH voters, just the same as all West pilots will be diehard NIC voters.

100% here are diehard Nic so quit talking stupid.

We, as a pilot group need to find the middle. And I don't want to hear "only DOH is it" or "only the NIC is it". That's the BS that is killing us all.

Nic IS it and there's no way around it. If there was, your lawyers would have figured it out long ago.

We as the pilot group need to get the control back on this issue....not the courts or what the company files with the courts. The company loves this and will #### with us forever if they have the chance.



breeze

The company loves the idiocy that is USAPA.

 

[Move2CLT]

mrbreeze

Good post. The merger committee is soliciting input from the pilots. Below is what I sent them.
_________________________________________________


[background=transparent]In my interaction with west pilots I have come to the conclusion that they fear and abhor a DOH based seniority regime as much as we abhor the Nicolau Award.[/background]

[background=transparent]Time spent on furlough is certainly difficult, but many decided not to return when recalled and never regretted their decision. Furlough time cannot be equated with active service time. The west pilots, in their view and with some justification, have been prosecuted and persecuted by a larger east group. Now we wish to discuss negotiating a consensual compromise solution.[/background]

[background=transparent]So first, we must be willing to do exactly what we ask of them. We would like them to abandon the Nic, therefore we must abandon DOH. Secondly, the west pilots, unlike the east, have nowhere to migrate to in the event of a PHX downsizing. The C&R's need to be strengthened in order to protect them in the event PHX shrinks further, particularly in a merger scenario. Finally, and perhaps most important, the west needs to feel they can enter into discussions or negotiations as an equal on the issue of seniority. They need to be granted extraordinary, one time authority and autonomy on the issue of seniority.[/background]

Go back in your minds to the day before the Nicolau Award was released. Many of us expected and would have been satisfied with the arbitrator reaching a solution midway between our respective positions. A truly fair seniority regime leaves both sides equally satisfied or dissatisfied. Neither USAPA's DOH with C&R's nor the flawed Nicolau Award achieves that goal.

Good Luck

The solicitation is BS. USAPA is doing nothing more than trying to play the "we tried to reason with them" defense.

USAPA pulled the same crap after he 9th ruled and they're doing it now.

No boys, it's the Nic. The only ones abandoning anything is you and your middle of the road fantasy.

I'm still laughing at your "green light". Silver says your free to negotiate and now you want our input? LMAO.

Your lawyer has told you DFR2 is going to be a loser for you so this is plan B.

Don't think so.

 

[Phoenix]

The courts have repeatedly been asked to declare the Nic to be it... and they have repeatedly refused to do so, and have even gone further to state emphatically and unambiguously, that it is not "it". Yet Marty still collects money from folks who drone on about "Nic is it" and at the same time claim to also be the sole spotters of morons.

 

[luvn737s]

To Piedmont 1984....I like your idea.

To Luvin737s and Metroyet....as they say, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

breeze

Unravelling the process of binding arbitration would be a much bigger part of a much bigger problem. I like my idea. USAPA needs to take itself out of the middle of the SLI process and restore the equal footing that each side had under ALPA Joint Negotiations. USAPA needs to acknowledge they were and are unwilling to represent the west (how many times has Hummel been to PHX to talk to the rank and file?). USAPA needs to acknowledge that it could possibly lead a fully integrated pilot group, but that it cannot impose it's will (even if it was "trying" to be fair) on the west during the integration. It needs to swallow the Nic and move on.

There is no other solution that preserves Binding Arbitration and moves the pilot group forward. The east cannot decide what is fair. That was established by an arbitrator. Accept it and move on, voluntarily or under court order.

 

[mrbreeze]

Ahh, yes. Arbitration was a bit too fair so lets let one side make up the list for both sides and then let the side that put together the list AND that has the majority vote on the lost it created.

God damn breeze, you've pegged the moron meter on full MORON!



No. And we don't vote on SLIs alone.



100% here are diehard Nic so quit talking stupid.



Nic IS it and there's no way around it. If there was, your lawyers would have figured it out long ago.



The company loves the idiocy that is USAPA.

Sorry, uhaul,

but your mentality is the largest impediment to the whole pilot group......I know you can't help it, but we have to move on.
breeze