OCT/NOV 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[luvn737s]

USAPA is the only reps for the pilot group, legally.

Now you're getting it! USAPA can't be an opposing team AND referee. They have to pick one or the other and in doing so will have to be the entity that compromises on either role.

If they choose to be referee, then they have an obligation to represent the pilots and remove themselves from taking any position (which is what I stated in 2 previous posts).

If the choose to be an opposing team (as they were under the ALPA SLI) then they submit themselves under the authority of the referee and abide by their decision. This has already occurred under the NIC and the time for "hammering out" has either passed, or is irrelevant if one side can continue hammering unilaterally until they are satisfied.

Either way, the TA with the NIC must eventually be presented if USAPA is going to mount any defense in court. Had USAPA really been about the so-called abuse the east pilots suffered at the hands of ALPA and they had formed prior to the beginning of SLI talks, you likely would be negotiating your 2nd contract by now.

How can 3500 guys so consistently screw up everything they touch?

 

[cactusboy53]

mrbreeze

Good post. The merger committee is soliciting input from the pilots. Below is what I sent them.
_________________________________________________


[background=transparent]In my interaction with west pilots I have come to the conclusion that they fear and abhor a DOH based seniority regime as much as we abhor the Nicolau Award.[/background]

[background=transparent]Time spent on furlough is certainly difficult, but many decided not to return when recalled and never regretted their decision. Furlough time cannot be equated with active service time. The west pilots, in their view and with some justification, have been prosecuted and persecuted by a larger east group. Now we wish to discuss negotiating a consensual compromise solution.....[/background]

Piedmont;
Here's the difference: YOU (and I) as members of the previous collective bargaining agent agreed to the process of mediation and arbitration. You (and the rest of USAPA's supporters) voted in USAPA under the premise of evading that same arbitration. We (those that voted against the inception of USAPA) do not agree to DOH (but do agree that USAPA has cost every one of us HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of dollars).

As I told breeze: While USAPA Constitution & By Laws (and UOM) state that it will protect seniority on a DOH basis, USAPA inherits ALL contracts, letters of agreements, etc. of the previous collective bargaining agent. USAPA can not pick and choose which to represent.

Further, USAPA represents all pilots as a group. Sending a wish list to Jess & Wayne serves ONLY the east (once again).

We continue running the cycle of the USAPA's rendition of the Kubler-Ross Grief model. The Kubler-Ross model has five stages that run in a line. USAPA's has DENIAL, ANGER, BARGAINING & DEPRESSION running in a circle. ACCEPTANCE is sitting in a corner alone.

There is only one way out of this mess, and it to accept the Nicolau seniority arbitration. period.

 

[prechilill]

Piedmont;
Here's the difference: YOU (and I) as members of the previous collective bargaining agent agreed to the process of mediation and arbitration. You (and the rest of USAPA's supporters) voted in USAPA under the premise of evading that same arbitration. We (those that voted against the inception of USAPA) do not agree to DOH (but do agree that USAPA has cost every one of us HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of dollars).

As I told breeze: While USAPA Constitution & By Laws (and UOM) state that it will protect seniority on a DOH basis, USAPA inherits ALL contracts, letters of agreements, etc. of the previous collective bargaining agent. USAPA can not pick and choose which to represent.

Further, USAPA represents all pilots as a group. Sending a wish list to Jess & Wayne serves ONLY the east (once again).

We continue running the cycle of the USAPA's rendition of the Kubler-Ross Grief model. The Kubler-Ross model has five stages that run in a line. USAPA's has DENIAL, ANGER, BARGAINING & DEPRESSION running in a circle. ACCEPTANCE is sitting in a corner alone.

There is only one way out of this mess, and it to accept the Nicolau seniority arbitration. period.

Great post.

 

[Hawkhunter]

STFU you moron. This post is so god damn stupid.

You're under and injunction and you have nothing with which to go after the company.

You're f-ing clueless with with your snapbacks, 3%, DOH, etc crap. The company is going Nic and you'll hear that before the end of the year. This appeal was the first step.

Oh, remember when you said the company wouldn't appeal? Add that to your list of stupidity.

and = an, who is the "moron"? Back to your circle jerk . LMFAO.

 

[Ames]

It could Criminal CB!!! You can highlight that too!!

PD

?

 

[Ames]

Your amatuerish attempts to berate me obviously aren't working. Try harder.



You probably have the Safety Lanyard around Fido's neck just to make him look a little tougher. It's embarrassing for both of you.

C'mon, man. Leave the poor dog out of it. He probably gets kicked enough.

 

[nevergiveup]

Piedmont;
Here's the difference: YOU (and I) as members of the previous collective bargaining agent agreed to the process of mediation and arbitration. You (and the rest of USAPA's supporters) voted in USAPA under the premise of evading that same arbitration. We (those that voted against the inception of USAPA) do not agree to DOH (but do agree that USAPA has cost every one of us HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of dollars).

As I told breeze: While USAPA Constitution & By Laws (and UOM) state that it will protect seniority on a DOH basis, USAPA inherits ALL contracts, letters of agreements, etc. of the previous collective bargaining agent. USAPA can not pick and choose which to represent.

Further, USAPA represents all pilots as a group. Sending a wish list to Jess & Wayne serves ONLY the east (once again).

We continue running the cycle of the USAPA's rendition of the Kubler-Ross Grief model. The Kubler-Ross model has five stages that run in a line. USAPA's has DENIAL, ANGER, BARGAINING & DEPRESSION running in a circle. ACCEPTANCE is sitting in a corner alone.

There is only one way out of this mess, and it to accept the Nicolau seniority arbitration. period.

So who gets to sue who first? The west may sue USAPA or the company. The east may sue USAPA or the company. Options: A. Merge, B. sell the west, C. Both a&b, D. Sell the east, E. Both a&d, F. both b&d, G. The longest answer!

 

[cactusboy53]

So who gets to sue who first? The west may sue USAPA or the company. The east may sue USAPA or the company. Options: A. Merge, B. sell the west, C. Both a&b, D. Sell the east, E. Both a&d, F. both b&d, G. The longest answer!

The judge has not given the company safe harbor from a DFR. That means that the company and USAPA can be sued for DFR (should they cross that line). The east can sue USAPA if they violate the constitution & by laws / UOM. IF these documents change to the Nicolau, then there is no basis for suit.

A merger with a larger body will likely be the quickest way out since there is little chance that the USAPA faithful will ever truly understand the position that they have placed themselves in.

The west won't be sold (neither will the east). That's the Mutation & Luv dream that just keeps popping up. USAPA IS the problem. The company knows it, we know it, and EVERY OTHER commercial pilot on the planet knows it.

Hurry up and pass that list. SYIC-A

 

[Piedmont1984]

cactusboy

The only way to move beyond our present circumstance is to first recognize and acknowledge where we are. Progress will only be made if we move forward from where we are, not where we were several years ago.

Both sides need to relinquish their idealogical positions and begin to think in practical terms how to solve this stalemate. And by the way, all who retire, whether east or west, while this legal dispute continues unresolved - for them it is definitely stalemate.

Instead of listening to the hardliners on either side with the loudest voices, USAPA's leadership and BPR need to grow some and listen to the largest number of voices instead.

It's known as 'realpolitik' and we need a strong dose of it here.

 

[luvn737s]

cactusboy

The only way to move beyond our present circumstance is to first recognize and acknowledge where we are. Progress will only be made if we move forward from where we are, not where we were several years ago.

Both sides need to relinquish their idealogical positions and begin to think in practical terms how to solve this stalemate.

Why is abiding by the agreed-to arbitration equated to a west "win"? You can yell a lie of softly speak it in an imitation-reasonable tone, but it is a lie nonetheless.

Would you say that rewarding a child during a tantrum is a worthwhile trade for the 2-3 minutes of peace? Or do you think that training him well will take care of the future tantrums, even if it means a little more pain on the front end? The whole concept of forming a cabal under the guise of a union, just so that the bully can have a form of legitimacy is abhorrent to most people. Folks hate not only those who persecute the west, but what they stand for as well. Do you feel you want to align yourself with these folks?

Demand that your union leaders lead and accept the NIC. That will put management on notice that the pilots can be unified and will be reckoned with. Or disband the union and save the money we waste in dues. There really is no other choice.

 

[nevergiveup]

Why is abiding by the agreed-to arbitration equated to a west "win"? You can yell a lie of softly speak it in an imitation-reasonable tone, but it is a lie nonetheless.

Would you say that rewarding a child during a tantrum is a worthwhile trade for the 2-3 minutes of peace? Or do you think that training him well will take care of the future tantrums, even if it means a little more pain on the front end? The whole concept of forming a cabal under the guise of a union, just so that the bully can have a form of legitimacy is abhorrent to most people. Folks hate not only those who persecute the west, but what they stand for as well. Do you feel you want to align yourself with these folks?

Demand that your union leaders lead and accept the NIC. That will put management on notice that the pilots can be unified and will be reckoned with. Or disband the union and save the money we waste in dues. There really is no other choice.

The west is foaming at the mouth to get NIC in place. Hmmmm.

 

[Ames]

"Gracious" was hyperbole.

Regardless, the only people unwilling to move forward are the West. The company is ready and USAPA is ready but some folks are hanging on to things that obviously won't work. Refusing to even show up for a discussion shows who is intransigent. I am afraid one day the West will remember with bitter irony their words to the ALPA East who refused to hear Nicalau when he told them to offer something that would work.

The west did show up for discussion back when it was relevant, and again during arbitration.

I am afraid one day the east will remember with bitter irony their words to Nicolau when he told them to get off of DOH because it wouldn't work.

 

[cleardirect]

So who gets to sue who first? The west may sue USAPA or the company. The east may sue USAPA or the company. Options: A. Merge, B. sell the west, C. Both a&b, D. Sell the east, E. Both a&d, F. both b&d, G. The longest answer!

Has the company ever once mentioned being afraid of usapa suing the company? Never. Usapa tried that trick in NY and lost badly.

This is what the court had to say.

"Plaintiff’s other allegations—including that defendants have not significantly altered their proposals from the Kirby proposal—similarly fall short of stating a claim for bad faith bargaining. Plaintiff misconceives the scope of the duty “to exert every reasonable effort” to reach an agreement, which does not require one side to accede to the other’s proposals:

[M]ovement toward the position of the other side is not a requirement of good faith bargaining. . . . Mere insistence on demands that seem extremely harsh to the other side and that a neutral party may consider “hard” is not a violation of bargaining duties. An employer may insist on positions consistent with . . . its asserted needs, even if the union may consider the proposals greedy.

Trans World Airlines, Inc., 682 F. Supp. at 1026 (internal citations omitted). “Courts must resist finding violations of the RLA based solely on evidence of hard bargaining, inability to reach agreement, or intransigent positions.” Horizon, 976 F.2d at 545. Here, plaintiff essentially asks the court to find bad faith predicated on US Airways’ lack of flexibility and its unwillingness to become more generous as the bargaining process progresses. But a company’s bargaining positions do not violate the statutory standards merely because they are “obstinate and unyielding,” Trans Int’l Airlines, Inc. v. Int’l Bhd. of Teamsters, 650 F.2d 949, 958 (9th Cir. 1980) (internal quotation marks omitted), and the distance between the parties after a long period of negotiations does not amount to a lack of reasonable effort to reach an agreement, Spirit, 2009 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 52326, at *30."

So just because the company refuses to negotiate for seniority does not give usapa a reason to sue.

Not using the Nicolau does give the west a reason to sue.

 

[Phoenix]

cactusboy

The only way to move beyond our present circumstance is to first recognize and acknowledge where we are. Progress will only be made if we move forward from where we are, not where we were several years ago.

Both sides need to relinquish their idealogical positions and begin to think in practical terms how to solve this stalemate. And by the way, all who retire, whether east or west, while this legal dispute continues unresolved - for them it is definitely stalemate.

Instead of listening to the hardliners on either side with the loudest voices, USAPA's leadership and BPR need to grow some and listen to the largest number of voices instead.

It's known as 'realpolitik' and we need a strong dose of it here.

Why is abiding by the agreed-to arbitration equated to a west "win"? You can yell a lie of softly speak it in an imitation-reasonable tone, but it is a lie nonetheless.

Would you say that rewarding a child during a tantrum is a worthwhile trade for the 2-3 minutes of peace? Or do you think that training him well will take care of the future tantrums, even if it means a little more pain on the front end? The whole concept of forming a cabal under the guise of a union, just so that the bully can have a form of legitimacy is abhorrent to most people. Folks hate not only those who persecute the west, but what they stand for as well. Do you feel you want to align yourself with these folks?

Demand that your union leaders lead and accept the NIC. That will put management on notice that the pilots can be unified and will be reckoned with. Or disband the union and save the money we waste in dues. There really is no other choice.

So the first West poster starts out with the "liar" accusation and ends with the demand that the "liar" must go tell his union leaders to use the "nic and nothing else". I'm sure that attitude will work wonders. Suit yourself. 🙂

We all know the real movement that needs to occur is the company needs to quit hiding behind black robes. When/if a merger is for real the company will be in crisis mode to move forward and they will.

Until the company is ready to rock then the pilots will be relegated to wearing yellow raincoats and making whinny speeches at crew news.

 

[nevergiveup]

Has the company ever once mentioned being afraid of usapa suing the company? Never. Usapa tried that trick in NY and lost badly.

This is what the court had to say.

"Plaintiff’s other allegations—including that defendants have not significantly altered their proposals from the Kirby proposal—similarly fall short of stating a claim for bad faith bargaining. Plaintiff misconceives the scope of the duty “to exert every reasonable effort” to reach an agreement, which does not require one side to accede to the other’s proposals:

[M]ovement toward the position of the other side is not a requirement of good faith bargaining. . . . Mere insistence on demands that seem extremely harsh to the other side and that a neutral party may consider “hard” is not a violation of bargaining duties. An employer may insist on positions consistent with . . . its asserted needs, even if the union may consider the proposals greedy.

Trans World Airlines, Inc., 682 F. Supp. at 1026 (internal citations omitted). “Courts must resist finding violations of the RLA based solely on evidence of hard bargaining, inability to reach agreement, or intransigent positions.” Horizon, 976 F.2d at 545. Here, plaintiff essentially asks the court to find bad faith predicated on US Airways’ lack of flexibility and its unwillingness to become more generous as the bargaining process progresses. But a company’s bargaining positions do not violate the statutory standards merely because they are “obstinate and unyielding,” Trans Int’l Airlines, Inc. v. Int’l Bhd. of Teamsters, 650 F.2d 949, 958 (9th Cir. 1980) (internal quotation marks omitted), and the distance between the parties after a long period of negotiations does not amount to a lack of reasonable effort to reach an agreement, Spirit, 2009 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 52326, at *30."

So just because the company refuses to negotiate for seniority does not give usapa a reason to sue.

Not using the Nicolau does give the west a reason to sue.

what else did the ninth say about chances of getting a contract with the NIC?