OCT/NOV 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

The same way the east furloughed pilots lost in the NIC by not being on the property. What goes around, comes around. It's the west way of doing things. If you have kept up with my posts, you would know that I do not believe an American merger would go DOH. An arbitrator will decide what to do with the pilots that elected furlough over coming back to work, not me.

Dave O'dell has accepted a job on the east. Do you consider that a recall (I do not)? If so then every west pilot has had an opportunity to come back and therefore not furloughed but really on a leave. So there are no furloughed west pilots. All the west has to do is use the MDA argument that they were recalled to the "east division" and not furloughed.

So what seniority do you think Dave O'dell should have? His DOH? He was hired in 2005 so he has 7 years seniority according to east logic. Should he have his DOH senior to all the new hires? Should he be placed on the east list?

You ignored my point though. If you place the west "furloughed" pilots below 1000 east pilots. What happens to the west active pilots? Do they also lose 1000 numbers? Why. Do you separate the west active with the west "furloughed" pilots with a gap of 1000?

You need to reread your post and check your logic.

It was an arbitrator Nicolau that placed the furloughed pilots below active pilots just like your acknowleded that it would be an arbitrator deciding in the next integration.

usapa has a huge problem. In order to get the company to agree to anything other than the Nicolau usapa has to sell the company on LUP. What is the LUP for placing 1000 east pilot senior to west furloughs? Is it just the west furloughs that are going to have 1000 east pilots placed in front of them or will it be every west pilots with east pilots in front of us?

You east guys make these crazy statements with nothing to back up the logic.

 

[Keroseneuser]

You are not only defending it, you've built a 3500 member shrine to it in the form of USAPA. If you disliked LOA93 you would take steps necessary to eliminate it - you would carry out the agreed-to arbitration instead of tossing an endless number of Hail Mary's in the court hoping to get someone to agree that Binding Arbitration doesn't mean #### and that Majority gets what it wants when it wants it.

Delays (which is the only product of USAPA) have fed LOA93 to the point that you would really rather forego the improved workrules and pay than admit USAPA is a mistake and pull the plug on your civil war.

I guess that should point out to you how badly NIC screwed up the seniority thing. When NIC looks worse than LOA 93 for a large majority of the east.

As far as what we can expect from the company, according to Dougs comments in PHX he is not going to go anything higher than 15% less than what delta makes. Thats $157 an hour for a 320 TOS Capt. and about $106 an hour for 320 f/o TOS.

So for most of the east a NIC and Dougs stated pay goals leaves them better off under LOA 93. At least under LOA 93 they can hit $125 before retiring, under NIC its about $106.

Nic means retiring an f/o for most of the current f/o's, None NIC and LOA 93 means retiring a Capt. for them, at higher wages. The way I see it an AA deal is the only chance you guys have for ever seeing NIC, but only if Doug ponies up the cash to make it worth it for them. Which I don't see happening. Just look at the flight attendants to see what we can expect from him.

To speak quite frankly i dont see the east doing anything to accept NIC without Delta style payrates in writing prior to talking about NIC.....and Doug knows that, so he keeps saying we cannot do anything until the SLI is done. Its a win win for him, a win for the east guys that can get to the left seat of the 330 and 76 before 65, and a kinda win for the guys that can get to the 320 left seat before 65, seperate ops.

About now Clear is feverishly typing on his keyboard something along the lines of "according to the list in 2005 nobody loses more than 18 months blah blah blah" Its not 2005 anymore, and trying to get the east to pretend it is will not happen. Several on here have accused the east of living in the past, well that part goes both ways. The east no longer has that nice contract, and the west no longer has that short lived 2005 seniority situation. It is almost 2013, and now that Doug has filed it will be 2014 before anything is figured out barring an AA merger.....probably 2015 in an AA scenario. Whatever the list looked like for a few months in 2005 is long long gone and won't be reappearing.

If we want to fix it both side have to come to realize that we are dealing with whats happening now in 2012 and figure something out.

 

[luvn737s]

3500 and growing while furloughed west pilots risk losing perhaps up to 1000 numbers by the time it is all said and done. West stagnation, no growth, all because the west is not willing to budge as well. It's a 2 sided issue! Funny how the west seems to dislike LOA 93 more than the east!

Furloughed west pilots have no compelling reason to return to US under the USAPA regime. By budge, I assume you mean concede even greater gains to the east who has made it their cause celebre to disadvantage the west.

How much is enough? Do you feel limited by 100% of the merger benefits?

 

[Keroseneuser]

So what seniority do you think Dave O'dell should have? His DOH? He was hired in 2005 so he has 7 years seniority according to east logic. Should he have his DOH senior to all the new hires? Should he be placed on the east list?

He should be senior to all the 2007 and later hires the way I see it since the current NIC fight deals with everybody hired prior to 2006. Since no matter what happens in a stand alone scenario he will be senior to the 2008 folks. i am not so sure in an AA deal, with APA running the show and their large number on the street I figure the west guys that passed up the east recall, offer, whatever you want to call it will probably be hosed and end up under all active pilots.

 

[nevergiveup]

Furloughed west pilots have no compelling reason to return to US under the USAPA regime. By budge, I assume you mean concede even greater gains to the east who has made it their cause celebre to disadvantage the west.

How much is enough? Do you feel limited by 100% of the merger benefits?

Are these pilots in question furloughed or have they taken an official leave of absence? If furloughed, I cannot stress enough the importance of getting back onto the property prior to any merger.

 

[cleardirect]

I guess that should point out to you how badly NIC screwed up the seniority thing. When NIC looks worse than LOA 93 for a large majority of the east.

As far as what we can expect from the company, according to Dougs comments in PHX he is not going to go anything higher than 15% less than what delta makes. Thats $157 an hour for a 320 TOS Capt. and about $106 an hour for 320 f/o TOS.

So for most of the east a NIC and Dougs stated pay goals leaves them better off under LOA 93. At least under LOA 93 they can hit $125 before retiring, under NIC its about $106.

Nic means retiring an f/o for most of the current f/o's, None NIC and LOA 93 means retiring a Capt. for them, at higher wages. The way I see it an AA deal is the only chance you guys have for ever seeing NIC, but only if Doug ponies up the cash to make it worth it for them. Which I don't see happening. Just look at the flight attendants to see what we can expect from him.

To speak quite frankly i dont see the east doing anything to accept NIC without Delta style payrates in writing prior to talking about NIC.....and Doug knows that, so he keeps saying we cannot do anything until the SLI is done. Its a win win for him, a win for the east guys that can get to the left seat of the 330 and 76 before 65, and a kinda win for the guys that can get to the 320 left seat before 65, seperate ops.

About now Clear is feverishly typing on his keyboard something along the lines of "according to the list in 2005 nobody loses more than 18 months blah blah blah" Its not 2005 anymore, and trying to get the east to pretend it is will not happen. Several on here have accused the east of living in the past, well that part goes both ways. The east no longer has that nice contract, and the west no longer has that short lived 2005 seniority situation. It is almost 2013, and now that Doug has filed it will be 2014 before anything is figured out barring an AA merger.....probably 2015 in an AA scenario. Whatever the list looked like for a few months in 2005 is long long gone and won't be reappearing.

If we want to fix it both side have to come to realize that we are dealing with whats happening now in 2012 and figure something out.

Nic means retiring an f/o for most of the current f/o's,

Please back up this statement. Nicolau gave 2 out of every 3 upgrades to the east. So if as you say MOST east F/O's will retire as an F/O that means that MOST were going to retire as an F/O stand alone.

That is if US Airways did not liquidate. Then ALL east pilots would have retired in 2005.

Back up your statement. Stand alone how many east F/O would have retired as an F/O (not being able to upgrade by choice)?

Using the Nicolau how many east F/O's will retire as an F/O?

My guess is there is maybe 200 total at the most that would not upgrade using the Nicolau. That is not MOST of the east F/O's

Just for fun tell us how many west F/O's using DOH would have to retire as an F/O compared to using the Nicolau.

Once again you point to the bottom junior east pilots. Using DOH each and every west pilots most senior to most junior is harmed. The Nicolau proetects every active pilots in the psotion they were in.

 

[Move2CLT]

Keep Move in your prayers.....every day.

Save it for yourselves. Voluntarily wanting to stay on LOA93 is an obvious tell that you're sick.

 

[nevergiveup]

Save it for yourselves. Voluntarily wanting to stay on LOA93 is an obvious tell that you're sick.

Just sent up another one 4 u.

 

[Move2CLT]

Are these pilots in question furloughed or have they taken an official leave of absence? If furloughed, I cannot stress enough the importance of getting back onto the property prior to any merger.

Gee, thank you for that brilliant suggestion.

You figure that out all by yourself?

 

[nevergiveup]

Gee, thank you for that brilliant suggestion.

You figure that out all by yourself?

Glad to help!

 

[Keroseneuser]

Please back up this statement. Nicolau gave 2 out of every 3 upgrades to the east. So if as you say MOST east F/O's will retire as an F/O that means that MOST were going to retire as an F/O stand alone.

That is if US Airways did not liquidate. Then ALL east pilots would have retired in 2005.

Back up your statement. Stand alone how many east F/O would have retired as an F/O (not being able to upgrade by choice)?

Using the Nicolau how many east F/O's will retire as an F/O?

My guess is there is maybe 200 total at the most that would not upgrade using the Nicolau. That is not MOST of the east F/O's

Just for fun tell us how many west F/O's using DOH would have to retire as an F/O compared to using the Nicolau.

Once again you point to the bottom junior east pilots. Using DOH each and every west pilots most senior to most junior is harmed. The Nicolau proetects every active pilots in the psotion they were in.

As has been stated many times. Nobody cares what the list looked like in 2005 anymore. Not even Doug. AOL is the only folks on the property that is looking to turn back time by 7 years. We want a way out of this mess in the next 7 years we all have to accept it is almost 2013, not 2005. Like it or not the east list has changed way too much in the last 7 years and is cranking up to change even faster in the coming years. From a vote point of view under the current t/a there is no way to get a nic passed. So the only option left for AOL is the courts. Using the past 7 years as a template we are looking at at least another 5 years for that route. But the good news is by that time the east will have retired enough people to make the point all but moot. According to the company even the newhires will be upgrading by then.

 

[EastUS1]

What you must really mean...... Then you could have had ...... Well, except you would have....But you may have...... Maybe.

Do you spend your entire life in Fantasyland?

 

[EastUS1]

As has been stated many times. Nobody cares what the list looked like in 2005 anymore. Not even Doug. AOL is the only folks on the property that is looking to turn back time by 7 years.

Yup, pretty much.....

 

[Move2CLT]

Yup, pretty much.....

Courts care. You'll care as well.

Be patient.

 

[Move2CLT]

Just sent up another one 4 u.

Which god so I can make a note of it.