OCT/NOV 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Move2CLT]

As has been stated many times. Nobody cares what the list looked like in 2005 anymore. Not even Doug. AOL is the only folks on the property that is looking to turn back time by 7 years. We want a way out of this mess in the next 7 years we all have to accept it is almost 2013, not 2005. Like it or not the east list has changed way too much in the last 7 years and is cranking up to change even faster in the coming years. From a vote point of view under the current t/a there is no way to get a nic passed. So the only option left for AOL is the courts. Using the past 7 years as a template we are looking at at least another 5 years for that route. But the good news is by that time the east will have retired enough people to make the point all but moot. According to the company even the newhires will be upgrading by then.

Hope you don't mind working Christmas and Thanksgiving for the rest of your careers.

Stagnation with integration.

 

[EastUS1]

So there are no furloughed west pilots.

You east guys make these crazy statements with nothing to back up the logic.

No additional comment needed here.

 

[Keroseneuser]

Hope you don't mind working Christmas and Thanksgiving for the rest of your careers.

Stagnation with integration.

Got them both off this year.....too early to tell for next year yet. But chances are pretty good unless I bid a widebody.

Just curious though, Is that supposed to be your selling point to get me to vote for a NIC? If so it needs some work.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Yup, pretty much.....

Except that a federal court just last month said this:

"But with that freedom comes risk because the West Pilot Defendants1 may have viable legal claims in the future should the collective bargaining agreement contain a seniority provision harmful to a subsection of the union."​

"Thus, just as ALPA would have been bound by the Transition Agreement had it remained the pilots’ representative, USAPA is bound by the Transition Agreement."​

"Of course, in negotiating for a particular seniority regime, USAPA must not breach its duty of fair representation. Accordingly, if USAPA wishes to abandon the Nicolau Award and accept the consequences of this course of action, it is free to do so. By discarding the result of a valid arbitration and negotiating for a different seniority regime, USAPA is running the risk that it will be sued by the disadvantaged pilots when the new collective bargaining agreement is finalized. An impartial arbitrator’s decision regarding an appropriate method of seniority integration is powerful evidence of a fair result. Discarding the Nicolau Award places USAPA on dangerous ground."​

"it is not possible to determine the viability of any claim for breach of the duty of fair representation until a particular seniority regime is ratified. When the collective bargaining agreement is finalized, individuals will be able to determine whether USAPA’s abandonment of the Nicolau Award was permissible, i.e. supported by a legitimate union purpose."​

"This conclusion places US Airways in a difficult position."​

So seven months or seven years it seems USAPA has been warned about the risks of abandoning the 2007 award.

 

[EastUS1]

Except that a federal court just last month said this:

"But with that freedom comes risk because the West Pilot Defendants1 may have viable legal claims in the future should the collective bargaining agreement contain a seniority provision harmful to a subsection of the union."​

Did you miss the "may" have part? No matter...just show us all the part that says the nic is it...? No? Well...Perhaps you can at least point us all to any portion that says usapa isn't free to negotiate....? 😉

All you've got in the wishin' and hopin' department is the fantasy that no legitimate union purpose could ever be served by dumping the nic nonsense.

 

[nevergiveup]

Which god so I can make a note of it.

Read about it for yourself if you wish. You need to enjoy history if you want to understand it. I recommend it!

 

[CallawayGolf]

Did you miss the "may" have part?

Nope; just as the 9th said [theoretically speaking of course] - USAPA may devise a seniority regime that does not bring the harm the west pilots fear. While theoretically possible, it seems preposterous to believe that USAPA will not harm the west in comparison to the position/status affirmed by the Nicolau Award. If the USAPA regime harms the west more than they would have been using the results of binding arbitration, then the west pilots WILL have a claim. Of course since it's a zero-sum game, if USAPA doesn't use the NIC and doesn't bring the harm the west pilots fear, then the east pilots will of necessity be the ones harmed by USAPA and they would have a valid DFR claim. The only way to not harm either the west pilots or the east pilots in relation to the result of the Nicolau Award is to actually use the Nicolau Award, theoretically or practically speaking.

 

[EastUS1]

If the USAPA regime harms the west more than they would have been using the results of binding arbitration, then the west pilots WILL have a claim.

"WILL have a claim."....? That's purely a faith-based, cultist notion that's unsupported by anything I've read, heard or seen. Barring some merger that makes this all moot...well...just keep that faith for possibly years yet to come.

Consider your own post here: " if USAPA doesn't use the NIC and doesn't bring the harm the west pilots fear, then the east pilots will of necessity be the ones harmed by USAPA and they would have a valid DFR claim". In that observation; you observe that the nic does indeed bring harm to the vast majority of the work group here.....but....that's just fine of course, and certainly...no legitimate purpose could ever be served by anything else? 😉

 

[Metroyet]

Yup, pretty much.....

The Company...Dug included, care a lot. For very good reason. Retire on LOA93 if you wish.

 

[EastUS1]

The Company...Dug included, care a lot.

How do you even pretend to know that to be any semblance of a fact?

"Retire on LOA93 if you wish." Rather than selling people out for the nic? = No problem!..and it's so very nice to have your blessing to do so. 🙂

 

[luvn737s]

Are these pilots in question furloughed or have they taken an official leave of absence? If furloughed, I cannot stress enough the importance of getting back onto the property prior to any merger.

Yes, do whatever it takes to come back to the lowest paying, most dysfunctional pilot group so you can be stapled to the bottom simply because a majority of refugees decided that's the way it would be . The job they were furloughed from (a decent airline with plenty of upside potential and a pilot group that was making meaningful improvements contract-over-contract) doesn't exist anymore. It's been replaced with a mutinous crew vying for the position of commander of the rotting hulk run aground.

To quote cltrat, "Thanks East".

 

[EastUS1]

The job they were furloughed from (a decent airline .....

Oh....So they are furloughed now?

"a decent airline..."? Wow! Thanks for the early entry for Joke of the Day consideration. 😉

 

[Metroyet]

How do you even pretend to know that to be any semblance of a fact?

"Retire on LOA93 if you wish." Rather than selling people out for the nic? = No problem!..and it's so very nice to have your blessing to do so. 🙂

It's all matter of public record. You see, sane people don't readily invite massive lawsuits they know they will lose. The East doesn't care because they are generally not sane. The company, with its fiduciary responsibilities doesn't have the luxury of insanity...as you so abundantly enjoy. I understand this is a highly complex concept. Please do your best to keep up.

 

[luvn737s]

From a vote point of view under the current t/a there is no way to get a nic passed. So the only option left for AOL is the courts. Using the past 7 years as a template we are looking at at least another 5 years for that route. But the good news is by that time the east will have retired enough people to make the point all but moot. According to the company even the newhires will be upgrading by then.

10 point quiz - What was the last issue you were permitted to vote on? Would you allow Cleary to have remained in office because he told you there was no way anyone else would win? Suppose he stayed in office and refused to allow the pilots to vote? What if he stayed in for 7 yrs and then said that until he's forced by a court to leave, he's essentially there by the will of the pilots?

 

[EastUS1]

It's all matter of public record.

Where can I find the "public record" of just how much sleep you believe Doug and the boys are even presumably losing over ANY of this?

"I understand this is a highly complex concept. Please do your best to keep up." I understand that you're completely full of nothing more than opinionated BS...so I'm not much worried about keeping up.