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OCT/NOV 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

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You should re-read your post. The ONLY thing this points to is the fact that the West pilots are unwilling to try to work out a reasonable solution to the problem, yet you want us to stand up for you and support you.

If you don't like what is currently taking place.....the East bid movement, East hiring, and the O'Dell situation, just try and work things out with YOUR union. That's the only answer, along with dropping the threat of a lawsuit. As long as you refuse to try and work things out, they will just get worse for the West guys.

This union is going to leave you guys behind if you don't get onboard.

breeze

I have tried before breeze....here is my opener....Nic, to it's terms, with a full system bump and flush and back pay to all West pilots to 2008 based on Kirby salaries, or a 35% override on West pay to the final pay rates of a JCBA.

Better get on board, if you don't we are leaving your pretend union behind.
 
One problem. That's ILLEGAL. The "union" has done everything in its power to try and leave behind the west. 7 years now and the East hasn't advanced a nanometer. The "East attrition" is completely irreverent as there is no such thing. It's US Airways attrition. Whatever benefits there are to that WILL BE SHARED EVENTUALLY. At some point every single upgrade will go to West pilots instead of the 1 out of 3 nicalau allowed for. It's just a matter of time.

Tell me, which court has declared it illegal? Surely, your not going to say Wake, which the 9th threw out.
 
I have tried before breeze....here is my opener....Nic, to it's terms, with a full system bump and flush and back pay to all West pilots to 2008 based on Kirby salaries, or a 35% override on West pay to the final pay rates of a JCBA.

Better get on board, if you don't we are leaving your pretend union behind.

BAHAHAHA!!!! Sorry, but that's just too funny!
 
You should re-read your post. The ONLY thing this points to is the fact that the West pilots are unwilling to try to work out a reasonable solution to the problem, yet you want us to stand up for you and support you.

If you don't like what is currently taking place.....the East bid movement, East hiring, and the O'Dell situation, just try and work things out with YOUR union. That's the only answer, along with dropping the threat of a lawsuit. As long as you refuse to try and work things out, they will just get worse for the West guys.

This union is going to leave you guys behind if you don't get onboard.
breeze

Hey short bus. I know this is a completely foreign concept to you but it is called integrity and principles. You don’t need to stand up for the west pilots, that I something far beyond your ability. But if you were honest men and had principles you would be standing up for what you say is your and usapa core principle, DOH. But by not standing up because it would help a west pilot you just prove your malcontents. That you have no core principles other than to advance east pilots over west pilots. Going to be a tough defense when the court asked have you demonstrated your principles in anyway other than to harm the west? Have you reordered your own list to reflect DOH? After all you say that is important and just because it was ratified means nothing. United rearranged their list. Have you fought to get the west pilots their DOH on the east list? No neither of those things.

A reasonable solution was worked out. But east pilots don’t have the integrity to live up to your word.

You can take the word or a judge.
An impartial arbitrator’s decision regarding an appropriate method of seniority integration is powerful evidence of a fair result.


Or you can take Doug Parkers word.
Likewise, we expect our unions will recognize a solution that simply “staples” all employees of one airline to the bottom of the other’s seniority list as unacceptable and unconscionable. To that end, because of seniority differences in some groups, straight seniority integration could have an effect similar to that of stapling employees to the bottom of a seniority list, an outcome that is inconsistent with a fair and equitable protocol. Therefore, some type of proportional integration would seem reasonable.

The Nicolau award is a proportional integration, fair reasonable and accepted.

We worked out a solution. We will never drop the law suit. We will never negotiate anything other than the Nicolau.

Usapa told you guys you won. Why keep coming back to us to “work something out”?

If you think that usapa can get away with just leaving the west behind you better think again. Usapa signed up to represent the west as well as the east. We pay good money for that and usapa had better perform. But thanks for the evidence that an east pilot thinks that is acceptable. Nice union motives. And you wonder why someone would say they hate you.


BTW "on board" was the rallying cry for an illegal job action are you back on that again?
 
I don't recall that as being ...umm...Mike.

Have you watched the Nov CLT crewnews?

Parker sums up the Silver ruling real nice. DOH is dead. Usapa has no threat, but the West....well let's just say.."some peoples rights would be violated" and the company is on the hook if usapa delivers anything other than the Nic.

BTW...we don't hate you guys...we just hate that your stupidity is costing us all a ton of money.

New catch phrase on the West..."reparations".....you are going to see either a bump and flush or a very large damages award...so I am guessing the company will opt for the bump and flush. this is inclusive if there is an AMR deal.

Oh, one more thing..."tilting at windmills" is a Don Quiote reference, and usapa is a classic example of the delusion involved.
If you are referring to the question(s) asked by one of our pilots (whom I know but won't name him here) about Cargo and Silvers ruling (two questions in one) Parker absolutely did NOT say that....you left out one KEY word: "MIGHT". Judge Silvers "Dicta" in here order is used again to call confusion to the situation and in fact, as I said before, I HOPE THEY APPEAL, just like Parker said the company "MAY" appeal.

I agree with the company. I even agree with what he said in the video. But he did NOT sum up the Silver ruling "real nice". He absolutely DID NOT SAY "DOH IS DEAD".

I just rewatched the video THREE TIMES just to be sure....HE DID NOT SAY THAT!

What he DID say was that, and I quote:

"that one court saying its not ripe, but once is is ripe we MIGHT find ourselves in a serious situation with USAPA and possibly the company violating the rights of some individuals reinforced by Judge Silvers ruling. That's one problem and on the other hand USAPA, the bargaining agent, that were required to negotiate with, STATING that that is NOT the seniority list they choose to negotiate to. So, thats one problem, WERE NOT, BY ANY MEANS, TRYING TO PICK SIDES ON THIS...were just, you know, betwix and between what do we do? We had hoped judge Silver would have solved that for us, but she didn't. But indeed she pretty much just reinforced....ah, restated the problem..and, umm, restated it even more strongly. So, at any rate, were trying to figure ut what we're going to do about that.

Post her ruling, there were filings made by both USAPA and um, the West pilots, that we thought, reineforced, yet again, how irreconcilable these differences are and they can't be resolved so we simply made a filing that said "look at this", you know, since you made your ruling, please reconsider. So thats what this is, we'll see what she says, but...but that's all it was. NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS. Another effort by us to see if we can get a ruling. So, ah, if it doesn't happen, we'll have to figure out what we'll do and (stammering) last time in PHX....we may appeal. Which I'm certain that if we due that we get accused of trying to delay....to the extent that if the NMB thinks it makes sense gets to the point of trying to restart negotiations, we restart negotiation again, that our problem that we keep saying out loud is the negotiations don't move at a rapid pace because we DON'T HAVE A SENIORITY LIST THAT IS AGREED UPON...they don't agree with what you guys say you guys don't agree with what they say and yet again, WE DON'T HAVE THIS RESOLVED TO THE POINT WHERE THE COMPANY IS CERTAIN WHAT SENIORITY LIST WE CAN NEGOTIATE TOWARD. It makes the negotiations NOT go very fast. So we would really like to see this resolved. So, its a difficult situation I wish we'd get resolved but, she didn't help much which is not a complaint by the judge by the way but indeed her comments ruling she made is she didn't have the authority to over-rule what the Ninth circuit said but, it's STILL UNRESOLVED."

NO WHERE DID HE SAY DOH WAS DEAD. I just transcribed it, go listen to it again and tell me if I transcribed out of context. I'm not a transcriptionist but I think I got it. Obviously, YOU DIDN'T.

If USAPA wants to resolve it, appeal it with the company and the West and let the Ninth hear oral argument....AGAIN and let them state clearly and unequivically what the answer is, this is called APPEAL DE NOVO.

BTW, that's NOT what Mike "we hate you guys"______ mean't. His facial actions and body language proved otherwise. (I got that tape).

What I WILL agree with all the West pilots and the Company is that they want a "seniority resolution NOW", not what Pat, Roland and O'Dwyer want getting crammed down from the USAPA leadership is the contract first then the money. USAPA LEADERSHIP in general but especially STEVE BRAFORD has failed all of us on this point and who has sold all of us down the road with this tripe and has yet again shouldered no leadership.
 
Man you guys have thin skin.

That comment was 4 years ago and it still bothers you guys. Wow was that the first time anyone has told you flat out that east pilots are hated?

Maybe if you all knew it a long time ago you might have changed your behavior. A little secret. After four years and multiple attacks from east pilots on the west. We don't like you any more today then we did then.
Parker understood YOUR behavior...."that's not productive".

Reinforced my point. Thanks Mike "we hate you guys"______.

Please enjoy your holiday.
 
Hey short bus. I know this is a completely foreign concept to you but it is called integrity and principles. You don’t need to stand up for the west pilots, that I something far beyond your ability. But if you were honest men and had principles you would be standing up for what you say is your and usapa core principle, DOH. But by not standing up because it would help a west pilot you just prove your malcontents. That you have no core principles other than to advance east pilots over west pilots. Going to be a tough defense when the court asked have you demonstrated your principles in anyway other than to harm the west? Have you reordered your own list to reflect DOH? After all you say that is important and just because it was ratified means nothing. United rearranged their list. Have you fought to get the west pilots their DOH on the east list? No neither of those things.

A reasonable solution was worked out. But east pilots don’t have the integrity to live up to your word.

You can take the word or a judge.



Or you can take Doug Parkers word.


The Nicolau award is a proportional integration, fair reasonable and accepted.

We worked out a solution. We will never drop the law suit. We will never negotiate anything other than the Nicolau.

Usapa told you guys you won. Why keep coming back to us to “work something out”?

If you think that usapa can get away with just leaving the west behind you better think again. Usapa signed up to represent the west as well as the east. We pay good money for that and usapa had better perform. But thanks for the evidence that an east pilot thinks that is acceptable. Nice union motives. And you wonder why someone would say they hate you.


BTW "on board" was the rallying cry for an illegal job action are you back on that again?
US Airways company webcast for pilots dated 20 July 2006, Doug Parker stated:

BUT WHAT I THINK IS GOING TO WORK PRETTY WELL IS A STRUCTURE THAT SAYS,

"YES DATE OF HIRE, BUT, ONE, NO ONE CAN OFF FURLOUGH AND REPLACE AN ACTIVE EMPLOYEE" AND "FURTHERMORE, NO ONE CAN MOVE INTO A BASE UNLESS THERE IS A VACANCY. THEY CAN ONLY SEE THEMSELVES DISPLACED BECAUSE THERE WAS AN OPENNING SOMEWHERE. I WISH WE COULD GET THERE AND SEE WHAT IT'S LIKE BECAUSE I JUST DON'T THINK IT'S AS BAD AS EVERYBODY THINKS."

All CAPS for the visually impaired. Don't believe me, USAPA has the tape, ask them for it. Better yet, when DFR II comes down the pike I'm sure the Judge would like to see/hear it as well. Because that IS WHAT PARKER SAID!
 
All CAPS for the visually impaired. Don't believe me, USAPA has the tape, ask them for it. Better yet, when DFR II comes down the pike I'm sure the Judge would like to see/hear it as well. Because that IS WHAT PARKER SAID!

Just like our lawyers and advisors, you believe Parker when he tells you what you what to hear, otherwise not so much.
 
US Airways company webcast for pilots dated 20 July 2006, Doug Parker stated:

BUT WHAT I THINK IS GOING TO WORK PRETTY WELL IS A STRUCTURE THAT SAYS,

"YES DATE OF HIRE, BUT, ONE, NO ONE CAN OFF FURLOUGH AND REPLACE AN ACTIVE EMPLOYEE" AND "FURTHERMORE, NO ONE CAN MOVE INTO A BASE UNLESS THERE IS A VACANCY. THEY CAN ONLY SEE THEMSELVES DISPLACED BECAUSE THERE WAS AN OPENNING SOMEWHERE. I WISH WE COULD GET THERE AND SEE WHAT IT'S LIKE BECAUSE I JUST DON'T THINK IT'S AS BAD AS EVERYBODY THINKS."

All CAPS for the visually impaired. Don't believe me, USAPA has the tape, ask them for it. Better yet, when DFR II comes down the pike I'm sure the Judge would like to see/hear it as well. Because that IS WHAT PARKER SAID!

Is it true shouting makes it 'truthier"?

PD!!
 
US Airways company webcast for pilots dated 20 July 2006, Doug Parker stated:

BUT WHAT I THINK IS GOING TO WORK PRETTY WELL IS A STRUCTURE THAT SAYS,

"YES DATE OF HIRE, BUT, ONE, NO ONE CAN OFF FURLOUGH AND REPLACE AN ACTIVE EMPLOYEE" AND "FURTHERMORE, NO ONE CAN MOVE INTO A BASE UNLESS THERE IS A VACANCY. THEY CAN ONLY SEE THEMSELVES DISPLACED BECAUSE THERE WAS AN OPENNING SOMEWHERE. I WISH WE COULD GET THERE AND SEE WHAT IT'S LIKE BECAUSE I JUST DON'T THINK IT'S AS BAD AS EVERYBODY THINKS."

All CAPS for the visually impaired. Don't believe me, USAPA has the tape, ask them for it. Better yet, when DFR II comes down the pike I'm sure the Judge would like to see/hear it as well. Because that IS WHAT PARKER SAID!
Who cares what Parker says about seniority?! Want a real eye opener? Go read how Siegel characterized this situation in front of Silver? That's all the "company position" you'll ever need to know. How desperate you are that you scrounge for meaningless comments made by Parker 6+ years ago....USAPA has the tape....HA!!! BFD! You guys are painted into the corner without the hope of EVER seeing a contract. You were warned over and over and you still are as willfully ignorant as ever. The 9th gave USAPA a break in the hopes that they would learn from Addington. They had no idea the level of mass brain damage they were dealing with.

In fact, did it ever occur to anyone at the USAPA Legal brain trust that the company's de facto appeal to silver with the East/West correspondence is simply a way to get that very material in front of the 9th so they can plainly see how stupid their original ruling was? Nobody...from any side of this...thinks Silver will change her mind. It's all prepping for the 9th.
 
Who cares what Parker says about seniority?! Want a real eye opener? Go read how Siegel characterized this situation in front of Silver? That's all the "company position" you'll ever need to know. How desperate you are that you scrounge for meaningless comments made by Parker 6+ years ago....USAPA has the tape....HA!!! BFD! You guys are painted into the corner without the hope of EVER seeing a contract. You were warned over and over and you still are as willfully ignorant as ever. The 9th gave USAPA a break in the hopes that they would learn from Addington. They had no idea the level of mass brain damage they were dealing with.

In fact, did it ever occur to anyone at the USAPA Legal brain trust that the company's de facto appeal to silver with the East/West correspondence is simply a way to get that very material in front of the 9th so they can plainly see how stupid their original ruling was? Nobody...from any side of this...thinks Silver will change her mind. It's all prepping for the 9th.
So after Silver makes a "funny" in her court about the Ninth, when it gets to appeals and they read her "comment" that all three judges are going to genuflect to the all knowing district court judge and beg forgiveness. Is that the way seniority works there?

That's a great argument to make, why don't you suggest that to Harper and Jacobs?

Jacobs: "You three judges can plainly see how stupid your original ruling was."

or this one:

Jacobs: "Judge Silver has a very high regard for you if you read the transcript from below (chuckle chuckle).

Note to Marty: "I triple dog dare you!" Now THAT would be funny!
 
Who cares what Parker says about seniority?! Want a real eye opener? Go read how Siegel characterized this situation in front of Silver? That's all the "company position" you'll ever need to know. How desperate you are that you scrounge for meaningless comments made by Parker 6+ years ago....USAPA has the tape....HA!!! BFD! You guys are painted into the corner without the hope of EVER seeing a contract. You were warned over and over and you still are as willfully ignorant as ever. The 9th gave USAPA a break in the hopes that they would learn from Addington. They had no idea the level of mass brain damage they were dealing with.

In fact, did it ever occur to anyone at the USAPA Legal brain trust that the company's de facto appeal to silver with the East/West correspondence is simply a way to get that very material in front of the 9th so they can plainly see how stupid their original ruling was? Nobody...from any side of this...thinks Silver will change her mind. It's all prepping for the 9th.

Oh, and another thing....here is what Parker just said as related to him by HIS legal team....yes that would include Siegel....about her ruling and appeal? I HOPE IT GOES TO THE NINTH!

Parker et al (meaning the company) doesn't care about seniority...yours mine or ours. It doesn't want to pay for it.

What Parker just said and I quote:

"that one court saying its not ripe, but once is is ripe we MIGHT find ourselves in a serious situation with USAPA and possibly the company violating the rights of some individuals reinforced by Judge Silvers ruling. That's one problem and on the other hand USAPA, the bargaining agent, that were required to negotiate with, STATING that that is NOT the seniority list they choose to negotiate to. So, thats one problem, WERE NOT, BY ANY MEANS, TRYING TO PICK SIDES ON THIS...were just, you know, betwix and between what do we do? We had hoped judge Silver would have solved that for us, but she didn't. But indeed she pretty much just reinforced....ah, restated the problem..and, umm, restated it even more strongly. So, at any rate, were trying to figure ut what we're going to do about that.

Post her ruling, there were filings made by both USAPA and um, the West pilots, that we thought, reineforced, yet again, how irreconcilable these differences are and they can't be resolved so we simply made a filing that said "look at this", you know, since you made your ruling, please reconsider. So thats what this is, we'll see what she says, but...but that's all it was.

NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS. Another effort by us to see if we can get a ruling. So, ah, if it doesn't happen, we'll have to figure out what we'll do and (stammering) last time in PHX....we may appeal. Which I'm certain that if we do that we get accused of trying to delay....to the extent that if the NMB thinks it makes sense gets to the point of trying to restart negotiations, we restart negotiation again, that our problem that we keep saying out loud is the negotiations don't move at a rapid pace because we DON'T HAVE A SENIORITY LIST THAT IS AGREED UPON...they don't agree with what you guys say you guys don't agree with what they say and yet again,

WE DON'T HAVE THIS RESOLVED TO THE POINT WHERE THE COMPANY IS CERTAIN WHAT SENIORITY LIST WE CAN NEGOTIATE TOWARD.

It makes the negotiations NOT go very fast. So we would really like to see this resolved. So, its a difficult situation I wish we'd get resolved but, she didn't help much which is not a complaint by the judge by the way but indeed her comments ruling she made is she didn't have the authority to over-rule what the Ninth circuit said but, it's STILL UNRESOLVED."
 
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