OCT/NOV 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[algflyr]

...

Our only hope to progress out of this mess is a merger with American and I believe there is a better than average chance Parker will use the Nic in that case in order to avoid any legal complications.

Parker is, after all, a seeker of the path of least resistance.

Least resistance? So you believe the APA wants the Nic award used in a seniority list integration??

 

[Ames]

Not really. Truth is, you hope he uses the NIC. He is in for legal trouble no matter what he does because the courts are not going to give him a pass.

Driver...

Please elaborate.

 

[Ames]

Least resistance? So you believe the APA wants the Nic award used in a seniority list integration??

I don't believe the APA wants the Nic but I believe they will use it. The Nic is the result of a legal process and binding arbitration. APA acknowledged that a future merger will be under the McKaskill/Bond ligistation which, ultimately, includes binding arbitration.

How can they commit to the use of arbitration when they would allow a previous one to be thrown aside? If ucrapa manages to negotiate an agreement with APA while throwing aside the Nic that would open the door for litigation/injunctions from the west and that is a complication APA does not need.

Should they use the Nic and the east litigates the east has a steep uphill battle attempting to overturn a legal and binding arbitration.

The process to the most efficient merger would be to use the Nicolau.

 

[nevergiveup]

I don't believe the APA wants the Nic but I believe they will use it. The Nic is the result of a legal process and binding arbitration. APA acknowledged that a future merger will be under the McKaskill/Bond ligistation which, ultimately, includes binding arbitration.

How can they commit to the use of arbitration when they would allow a previous one to be thrown aside? If ucrapa manages to negotiate an agreement with APA while throwing aside the Nic that would open the door for litigation/injunctions from the west and that is a complication APA does not need.

Should they use the Nic and the east litigates the east has a steep uphill battle attempting to overturn a legal and binding arbitration.

The process to the most efficient merger would be to use the Nicolau.

But will it be able to be used operationally without reaching a CBA between USAPA and US Airways?

 

[Pi brat]

I don't believe the APA wants the Nic but I believe they will use it. The Nic is the result of a legal process and binding arbitration. APA acknowledged that a future merger will be under the McKaskill/Bond ligistation which, ultimately, includes binding arbitration.

How can they commit to the use of arbitration when they would allow a previous one to be thrown aside? If ucrapa manages to negotiate an agreement with APA while throwing aside the Nic that would open the door for litigation/injunctions from the west and that is a complication APA does not need.

Should they use the Nic and the east litigates the east has a steep uphill battle attempting to overturn a legal and binding arbitration.

The process to the most efficient merger would be to use the Nicolau.

I know you and I have traded jabs but this is a serious question that I don't know the answer to. If we have not finished our dispute over the Nic, will it be up to the APA do decide whether or not to use the Nic? The won't be the one presenting a US seniority list to the arbitrator, right? Seems like it will be USAPA's job to deliver the seniority list.

It seems like it would be the other way around. USAPA presents the list it thinks is correct and the west pilots climb the legal hill that they have been at for a while now. Not that I doubt they will.

 

[Zone5]

But will it be able to be used operationally without reaching a CBA between USAPA and US Airways?

No it won't. The NIC resides inside the TA, which requires a JCBA between the East and West for it to be implemented.

Now, there appears to be some sentiment and or opinion being floated on this board from a few West posters, that an acceptance by the pilots of an MOU with the company would essentially constitute an "agreement" within the context of the TA and would be a "De-facto JCBA" which would trigger implementation of the NIC. I think that would be a BIG stretch, but something the BPR should address at the Special Meeting today or tomorrow, because if there is any validity to it (however remote), the membership needs to be aware of this potential "unexpected consequence" of ratifying an MOU.


seajay

 

[nevergiveup]

No it won't. The NIC resides inside the TA, which requires a JCBA between the East and West for it to be implemented.

Now, there appears to be some sentiment and or opinion being floated on this board from a few West posters, that an acceptance by the pilots of an MOU with the company would essentially constitute an "agreement" within the context of the TA and would be a "De-facto JCBA" which would trigger implementation of the NIC. I think that would be a BIG stretch, but something the BPR should address at the Special Meeting today or tomorrow, because if there is any validity to it (however remote), the membership needs to be aware of this potential "unexpected consequence" of ratifying an MOU.


seajay

I believe it depends on the wording of the MOU as to whether or not it can be considered a contract.

 

[luvn737s]

Now, there appears to be some sentiment and or opinion being floated on this board from a few West posters, that an acceptance by the pilots of an MOU with the company would essentially constitute an "agreement" within the context of the TA and would be a "De-facto JCBA" which would trigger implementation of the NIC. I think that would be a BIG stretch, but something the BPR should address at the Special Meeting today or tomorrow, because if there is any validity to it (however remote), the membership needs to be aware of this potential "unexpected consequence" of ratifying an MOU.


seajay

IOW, "Crank Up the Boogyman Machine!"

USAPA won't let a buncha stoopid line pilots derail their gravy train. Don't worry seajay, your union will protect you from yourself.

 

[luvn737s]

Should they use the Nic and the east litigates the east has a steep uphill battle attempting to overturn a legal and binding arbitration.

The process to the most efficient merger would be to use the Nicolau.

The east won't litigate because they have a diminishing pool of folks who would be affected and would finance such litigation. I am sure if the APA was smart they would assess the east pilots to defend the APA against the east lawsuit. With the east being a minority against a west/AA voting block, such an assessment would pass easily and the motivation for such a lawsuit would quickly evaporate.

No, the east is not up for spending their own money. Like Parker and Lorenzo, they are opportunists at heart and will steal what they can until the cost becomes too high.

 

[luvn737s]

When the NDA period ends the MOU will be improved and sent out for a vote

Improved, eh? What would motivate Parker to improve a deal he's made with untrustworthy folks like the east? I know he's made the mistake of capitulating to tanrtums (thus inviting more not less), but I'm sure he must have learned his lesson by now. Heck, you've been paying his tuition for 7 years.

Why do I think your first reaction to the next MOU will be, "But, but, bu..."

 

[nevergiveup]

The east won't litigate because they have a diminishing pool of folks who would be affected and would finance such litigation. I am sure if the APA was smart they would assess the east pilots to defend the APA against the east lawsuit. With the east being a minority against a west/AA voting block, such an assessment would pass easily and the motivation for such a lawsuit would quickly evaporate.

No, the east is not up for spending their own money. Like Parker and Lorenzo, they are opportunists at heart and will steal what they can until the cost becomes too high.

I believe this was a response to something posted by Ames.

 

[luvn737s]

I believe this was a response to something posted by Ames.

It was. My glitch.

 

[Zone5]

I believe it depends on the wording of the MOU as to whether or not it can be considered a contract.

Probably true, all the more reason to specifically address this concern/potential issue in any MOU/TA going forward. All the T's need to be crossed and all the I's need to be dotted. Ironclad language needs to be included specifically addressing and excluding any interpretation of an MOU as an East-West JCBA, to avoid any "backdoor" implementation of the NIC.


seajay

 

[Pi brat]

Now, there appears to be some sentiment and or opinion being floated on this board from a few West posters, that an acceptance by the pilots of an MOU with the company would essentially constitute an "agreement" within the context of the TA and would be a "De-facto JCBA" which would trigger implementation of the NIC. .


seajay

I've run that idea by a west friend of mine that seems to be in the know. He said that wasn't true because the MOU is not a JCBA, it only addresses a few items in the contract, not the whole thing. More of a loa, or side letter.

 

[Pi brat]

The east won't litigate because they have a diminishing pool of folks who would be affected and would finance such litigation.

I can see where you would come up with that idea given the last 5 years of reluctance of both sides to litigate. Geez....