OCT/NOV 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion
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Walmartgreeter
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Phoenix posted an outstanding chart today, and my internet skills do not allow me to copy it, much less include it in my US Aviation signature.
Thanks Phoenix, stunning.
Greeter
Thanks Phoenix, stunning.
Greeter
Yes he did sorta says it all! What is SCAREY IS YOUR AVITAR, I have tried, but your real-life image shows up in that car! MM! A LANKEY ZUMEE SAID SO!
traderjake
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Love the enjoy loa 93 mantra you west pilots chant. Look at the following link. america west undercut other pilots pay since 1983. You dare to mention pay.
Look at Southwest, Airtran (valuejet airlines) Jet Blue. These airlines had no pension, no pay, no duty rigs for years. They undercut and worked for less than other real airline pilots for decades, because they wanted to be real airline pilots without the sacrifice.
You are the new back pack toting typical juvenile mentality of pilots entering this profession, short memory and short attention span for future problems.
http://web.mit.edu/a...T PERSONNEL.htm
Con Statement on the 2012 UAL Tentative Agreement
The UALMEC accepted the Tentative Agreement on November 12, 2012.
The Master Chairman reported to the MEC that he and the Negotiating
Committee would bring the UAL pilots an industry‐leading contract. Every
UAL pilot recognizes the difficulties of this trilateral negotiation but that
should not be used to justify a TA that falls short.
This TA hands management the key to the lock that serves to retain
international Pacific flying out of SEA. By eliminating language in our contract
that prevents scheduling W’s containing two or more legs (over 10 hours)
across the Pacific, flown by domiciles other than SEA, SFO, or LAX, this TA
opens the door to onerous Pacific pairings flown by pilots from any domicile
and exposes all three current west‐coast domiciles to a loss of Pacific flying.
The lost language was added to our CBA as a result of lessons we learned
about Pacific flying from Pan Am pilots and has been part of our CBA since
1991.
The four cornerstones of our contract are Scope, Compensation, Work rules,
and Retirement and Benefits (R&I).
Scope:
The 2012 TA Scope section represents a major concession by both pilot
groups. TA Scope is slightly tighter than Delta Scope, thus it could be argued in
that context, that this section is Industry‐Leading. However, it must be said
that the UAL MEC direction to the NC was clear: “nothing less than DAL pay
for DAL scope.” This TA falls short.
Compensation:
The TA Pay Rates fall short of Delta’s pay rates. This is not industry‐leading,
as UAL rates fall 8.5% behind Delta in the first year and will not match Delta
rates, under the current Delta contract, until January 1, 2016. Contrary to the
rationalizing spin, the fact is that DAL pilots will make more per hour for
flying the same equipment.
Work Rules:
While sections 5 & 20 of the TA are generally based on the current UAL book,
when scrutinized in detail, these sections fall short of industry‐leading
expectation, as it relates to securing quality of life issues. The sanctity of a
pilot’s scheduled private life has not been improved. In 2003 under BK, UAL
pilots consciously decided to give up pay in exchange for retaining the QWL
value of our work‐rules.
In this 2012 TA, no improvements are found, only monetary mitigation is
addressed. UAL pilots are, in effect, being encouraged to sell those rules for
add‐pay.
Additionally, because of the uniqueness of the merger, and while current
United pilots are on furlough, no contractual monetary incentive programs for
the purpose of modifying schedules, picking up open time, or otherwise
negatively affecting the manpower staffing requirements should be triggered.
Career security in this TA is only addressed for future furloughs.
Involuntary JRM/SRM in the TA is in direct contradiction with unanimous
MEC direction.
Overall this TA’s work rule section gives management contractual language
that allows them more control over our lives “at work” and “at home”.
Retirement and Benefits:
Medical insurance premiums once capped at 7% are now capped at 9.25%.
Premiums have increased, and deductibles along with out‐of‐pocket limits will
cost every pilot more. For example, current UAL PPO for employee/spouse =
$173; TA = $232 ‐ $237max. Current HMO participants will swallow the
hardest: cost now = $0; TA = $245. Pilots with extensive family health issues
will be hit very hard ($) under the TA.
Another example is the LTD which, under the TA, will be quite expensive to
each UAL pilot; The LTD is free at DAL.
In conclusion, UAL pilot’s expectation has always been an industry‐leading
contract and the MC and NC have repeatedly reinforced that expectation.
Finally, delivering a TA that fails to address the sacrifices of the last decade in
a meaningful way does not meet the justified expectations nor does it
recognize the essential role pilots play in the airline industry.
It is the responsibility of every United pilot to attend roadshows, educate
yourselves with the information provided, and ask questions of the
roadshow presenters until you are satisfied.
Use the tools provided on the MEC website www.unitedpilotagreement.com ,
and determine for yourself if this TA is truly industry‐leading; and, if it reflects
the responsibility borne by United pilots every day in the course of the service
you provide to UAL.
The UALMEC provided direction to the JNC, based on your input. There is no
reason to question the effort of the Negotiating Committee, advisors, or SME’s;
and, those MEC members who cast NO votes do not do so with this CON
statement.
The democratic process has concluded with the UAL MEC accepting this TA
and sending it to the members for ratification. As it should be, the pilots who
will work under this potential JCBA will have the final say.
It is with a vision to the future and recognition of the steep hill our profession
must climb to regain that which has been stolen, that we pass to the
membership our overall evaluation of this TA. We have specifically not
pointed to every provision that gives us pause; nor do we claim there are no
improvements.
The pilots of United will make their own decision on the acceptability of the
2012 TA. Together we win.
Fraternally and in Unity,
Captain Jeff Berg, SEA C27 Chairman
FO Ben Pangelinan, SEA C27 Vice‐Chairman
FO Carlos Rodriguez, ORD C12 Vice‐Chairman
FO Eric Popper, ORD C12 Secretary‐Treasurer
Captain Paul Welch, SEA C27 Secretary‐Treasurer
The UALMEC accepted the Tentative Agreement on November 12, 2012.
The Master Chairman reported to the MEC that he and the Negotiating
Committee would bring the UAL pilots an industry‐leading contract. Every
UAL pilot recognizes the difficulties of this trilateral negotiation but that
should not be used to justify a TA that falls short.
This TA hands management the key to the lock that serves to retain
international Pacific flying out of SEA. By eliminating language in our contract
that prevents scheduling W’s containing two or more legs (over 10 hours)
across the Pacific, flown by domiciles other than SEA, SFO, or LAX, this TA
opens the door to onerous Pacific pairings flown by pilots from any domicile
and exposes all three current west‐coast domiciles to a loss of Pacific flying.
The lost language was added to our CBA as a result of lessons we learned
about Pacific flying from Pan Am pilots and has been part of our CBA since
1991.
The four cornerstones of our contract are Scope, Compensation, Work rules,
and Retirement and Benefits (R&I).
Scope:
The 2012 TA Scope section represents a major concession by both pilot
groups. TA Scope is slightly tighter than Delta Scope, thus it could be argued in
that context, that this section is Industry‐Leading. However, it must be said
that the UAL MEC direction to the NC was clear: “nothing less than DAL pay
for DAL scope.” This TA falls short.
Compensation:
The TA Pay Rates fall short of Delta’s pay rates. This is not industry‐leading,
as UAL rates fall 8.5% behind Delta in the first year and will not match Delta
rates, under the current Delta contract, until January 1, 2016. Contrary to the
rationalizing spin, the fact is that DAL pilots will make more per hour for
flying the same equipment.
Work Rules:
While sections 5 & 20 of the TA are generally based on the current UAL book,
when scrutinized in detail, these sections fall short of industry‐leading
expectation, as it relates to securing quality of life issues. The sanctity of a
pilot’s scheduled private life has not been improved. In 2003 under BK, UAL
pilots consciously decided to give up pay in exchange for retaining the QWL
value of our work‐rules.
In this 2012 TA, no improvements are found, only monetary mitigation is
addressed. UAL pilots are, in effect, being encouraged to sell those rules for
add‐pay.
Additionally, because of the uniqueness of the merger, and while current
United pilots are on furlough, no contractual monetary incentive programs for
the purpose of modifying schedules, picking up open time, or otherwise
negatively affecting the manpower staffing requirements should be triggered.
Career security in this TA is only addressed for future furloughs.
Involuntary JRM/SRM in the TA is in direct contradiction with unanimous
MEC direction.
Overall this TA’s work rule section gives management contractual language
that allows them more control over our lives “at work” and “at home”.
Retirement and Benefits:
Medical insurance premiums once capped at 7% are now capped at 9.25%.
Premiums have increased, and deductibles along with out‐of‐pocket limits will
cost every pilot more. For example, current UAL PPO for employee/spouse =
$173; TA = $232 ‐ $237max. Current HMO participants will swallow the
hardest: cost now = $0; TA = $245. Pilots with extensive family health issues
will be hit very hard ($) under the TA.
Another example is the LTD which, under the TA, will be quite expensive to
each UAL pilot; The LTD is free at DAL.
In conclusion, UAL pilot’s expectation has always been an industry‐leading
contract and the MC and NC have repeatedly reinforced that expectation.
Finally, delivering a TA that fails to address the sacrifices of the last decade in
a meaningful way does not meet the justified expectations nor does it
recognize the essential role pilots play in the airline industry.
It is the responsibility of every United pilot to attend roadshows, educate
yourselves with the information provided, and ask questions of the
roadshow presenters until you are satisfied.
Use the tools provided on the MEC website www.unitedpilotagreement.com ,
and determine for yourself if this TA is truly industry‐leading; and, if it reflects
the responsibility borne by United pilots every day in the course of the service
you provide to UAL.
The UALMEC provided direction to the JNC, based on your input. There is no
reason to question the effort of the Negotiating Committee, advisors, or SME’s;
and, those MEC members who cast NO votes do not do so with this CON
statement.
The democratic process has concluded with the UAL MEC accepting this TA
and sending it to the members for ratification. As it should be, the pilots who
will work under this potential JCBA will have the final say.
It is with a vision to the future and recognition of the steep hill our profession
must climb to regain that which has been stolen, that we pass to the
membership our overall evaluation of this TA. We have specifically not
pointed to every provision that gives us pause; nor do we claim there are no
improvements.
The pilots of United will make their own decision on the acceptability of the
2012 TA. Together we win.
Fraternally and in Unity,
Captain Jeff Berg, SEA C27 Chairman
FO Ben Pangelinan, SEA C27 Vice‐Chairman
FO Carlos Rodriguez, ORD C12 Vice‐Chairman
FO Eric Popper, ORD C12 Secretary‐Treasurer
Captain Paul Welch, SEA C27 Secretary‐Treasurer
Yes, you west pilots have been telling the East Pilots this for years.
Attempting to Blackmail East pilots for the nic, has not worked. Time for the company to pony up and negotiate.
August 2007
MCF CBA Funding Resolution WHEREAS of the top 14 ALPA Carriers operating similar aircraft as US Airways, the AAA flight hour pay rate sets the bar for the lowest rate, and
WHEREAS the AAA MEC has been granted MCF Funds to be used in conjunction with the AWA MEC to fund a campaign to achieve a better CBA, and
WHEREAS the AWA MEC Chairman reported publicly that he approached management with a message that AWA pilots would be outraged if management granted the AAA pilots equal pay rates as compared to the AWA pilots, and
WHEREAS ALPA President John Prater has committed to providing all recourses necessarily to raise the bar for pay for all ALPA pilots and
WHEREAS it is unacceptable for any union group to object to another group being paid the same for doing the same work, and WHEREAS the recently passed MEC Resolution “equivalent contract negotiations” sets the foundation of the AAA MEC’s strategy in dealing with the Nicolau award, and calls for separate operations and separate contracts from the AWA pilots, and
WHEREAS the use of MCF Funds have been approved for seeking pay raises for the AAA pilots via the JNC process, and
WHEREAS at minimum these same MCF Funds should be made available to also seek pay raises via parity raise for the AAA pilots, as the first step in seeking an industry standard plus contract,
THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the AAA MEC directs all three MEC Officers to meet initially with ALPA President John Prater and then with ALPA’s Executive Council as soon as practical and request the release of AAA MEC’s portion of the MCF funds with an updated time line for their use, so as to mutually achieve the goals of both the AAA MEC and all ALPA pilots by raising the lowest pay rate bar, and BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the AAA MEC Officers report back to the AAA MEC as soon as practical on the results of both meetings.
History lesson, US Airways ALPA MEC.
History is repeating itself at this very moment.
Resolution passed 08-15-07
WHEREAS this September will mark two years since the merger between US Airways and America West Airlines, and
WHEREAS US Airways management has benefited from scope relief granted by the US Airways pilots allowing the use of the US Airways marketing identity on America West flights for nearly two years, and
WHEREAS there has been little substantial economic progress made during Joint Negotiations for both pilot groups, and
WHEREAS there has been a disparity of pay between the pilot groups since the onset of the US Airways and America West merger, and
WHEREAS this disparity between the two pilot groups has increased due to the recalling of US Airways furloughed pilots that are not at top of scale, and
WHEREAS the America West Pilots received the support of the US Airways pilots in dealings with management that culminated in the America West pilots successfully achieving substantial gains in the areas of Defined Contribution Retirement Plan and Corporate Profit Sharing Plan, and
WHEREAS since the US Airways and America West Merger, management has seen fit to grant other employees pay and parity raises throughout the corporation, and
WHEREAS US Airways management continues to reward themselves with lucrative compensation packages, and
WHEREAS the profits are reported separately for US Airways and America West by the company, and they indicate an extreme disproportionate profit generated from the East operation resulting in East profits disportionately funding items such as West profit sharing plans, other employee raises and executive compensation packages and
WHEREAS the Transition Agreement envisioned substantial progress being made by June of 2006, and
WHEREAS Management has intentionally manipulated the timeline and slowed the progress of the JNC process, in particular during it's ill conceived hostile takeover attempt of Delta Airlines, and
WHEREAS during that failed Delta Airline Takeover attempt, management clearly promised that all pilots would be brought up to the highest contract of the three pilot groups, and
WHEREAS CEO Doug Parker on July 26, 2007 during the 2nd Quarter Report publicly stated that US Airways has already budgeted 122 million dollars for 2007 and beyond for the assumed cost of matching US Airways pilots pay with America West pilot pay plus an additional three percent, and
WHEREAS also during this same public forum CEO Doug Parker declared that employees performing the same work should be paid at the same level of pay, and
WHEREAS the expense of continued fruitless negotiation is not in the best interest of the US Airways East pilots.
THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the AAA MEC immediately reassign our members of the JNC back to Negotiating Committee duties, and
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that our members of the JNC will not reengage in Joint Contract Negotiations until the US Airways Pilots are provided parity with our Brother and Sister pilots at America West, and
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that parity is defined as pay as put forth to the company in our June 28th proposal, and
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED That retro pay for all US Airways pilots will take affect starting September 1, 2007, including a fair interest charge of 8% that will be calculated onto any future agreements, and
THEREFORE BE IT FINALLY RESOLVED that the US Airways MEC authorizes a media campaign, including but not limited to informational picketing and other forms of lawful demonstrations, in order to inform the traveling public of the un-American pay discrimination that the professional union pilots at US Airways have been enduring for the last two years.
History is repeating itself at this very moment.
Resolution passed 08-15-07
WHEREAS this September will mark two years since the merger between US Airways and America West Airlines, and
WHEREAS US Airways management has benefited from scope relief granted by the US Airways pilots allowing the use of the US Airways marketing identity on America West flights for nearly two years, and
WHEREAS there has been little substantial economic progress made during Joint Negotiations for both pilot groups, and
WHEREAS there has been a disparity of pay between the pilot groups since the onset of the US Airways and America West merger, and
WHEREAS this disparity between the two pilot groups has increased due to the recalling of US Airways furloughed pilots that are not at top of scale, and
WHEREAS the America West Pilots received the support of the US Airways pilots in dealings with management that culminated in the America West pilots successfully achieving substantial gains in the areas of Defined Contribution Retirement Plan and Corporate Profit Sharing Plan, and
WHEREAS since the US Airways and America West Merger, management has seen fit to grant other employees pay and parity raises throughout the corporation, and
WHEREAS US Airways management continues to reward themselves with lucrative compensation packages, and
WHEREAS the profits are reported separately for US Airways and America West by the company, and they indicate an extreme disproportionate profit generated from the East operation resulting in East profits disportionately funding items such as West profit sharing plans, other employee raises and executive compensation packages and
WHEREAS the Transition Agreement envisioned substantial progress being made by June of 2006, and
WHEREAS Management has intentionally manipulated the timeline and slowed the progress of the JNC process, in particular during it's ill conceived hostile takeover attempt of Delta Airlines, and
WHEREAS during that failed Delta Airline Takeover attempt, management clearly promised that all pilots would be brought up to the highest contract of the three pilot groups, and
WHEREAS CEO Doug Parker on July 26, 2007 during the 2nd Quarter Report publicly stated that US Airways has already budgeted 122 million dollars for 2007 and beyond for the assumed cost of matching US Airways pilots pay with America West pilot pay plus an additional three percent, and
WHEREAS also during this same public forum CEO Doug Parker declared that employees performing the same work should be paid at the same level of pay, and
WHEREAS the expense of continued fruitless negotiation is not in the best interest of the US Airways East pilots.
THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the AAA MEC immediately reassign our members of the JNC back to Negotiating Committee duties, and
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that our members of the JNC will not reengage in Joint Contract Negotiations until the US Airways Pilots are provided parity with our Brother and Sister pilots at America West, and
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that parity is defined as pay as put forth to the company in our June 28th proposal, and
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED That retro pay for all US Airways pilots will take affect starting September 1, 2007, including a fair interest charge of 8% that will be calculated onto any future agreements, and
THEREFORE BE IT FINALLY RESOLVED that the US Airways MEC authorizes a media campaign, including but not limited to informational picketing and other forms of lawful demonstrations, in order to inform the traveling public of the un-American pay discrimination that the professional union pilots at US Airways have been enduring for the last two years.
prechilill
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Human beings have a demonstrated talent for self-deception when their emotions are stirred.
-Carl Sagan, PhD
-Carl Sagan, PhD
prechilill
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Human beings have a demonstrated talent for self-deception when their emotions are stirred.
-Carl Sagan, PhD
-Carl Sagan, PhD
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Pilot wannabe is wasting its time on something it knows nothing about and NONE of what you stated here is based on facts.
Go get a job, pilot wannabe.
prechilill
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LOA25 U/CAL
Effect on ISL
[background=rgb(245, 245, 255)]If you’ve read any arbitrator rulings on merged seniority lists, and in particular the NW-Delta ruling, then you know that longevity AND current status (fleet, seat, etc.) were taken into consideration along with career expectations and other factors. The fact of the matter is that right now if you are currently furloughed then you have NO LEGAL STANDING what-so-ever.[/background]
Effect on ISL
[background=rgb(245, 245, 255)]If you’ve read any arbitrator rulings on merged seniority lists, and in particular the NW-Delta ruling, then you know that longevity AND current status (fleet, seat, etc.) were taken into consideration along with career expectations and other factors. The fact of the matter is that right now if you are currently furloughed then you have NO LEGAL STANDING what-so-ever.[/background]
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That may be the "opinion" of the LEC but that interpretation can be challenged in court.
IF the furloughed united pilots have NEVER been offered the opportunity for recall then I say legally they DO have certain rights of their current CBA that cannot be stripped from them.
http://www.leagle.com/xmlResult.aspx?page=1&xmldoc=19801901622F2d1279_11678.xml&docbase=CSLWAR1-1950-1985&SizeDisp=7
Even though your furloughed does not mean you are stripped of voting rights under the "good standing" provision of the CBA. As I quote (again):
"In Williams v. Typographical Union,423 F.2d 1295 (10th Cir.), cert. denied, 400 U.S. 824, 91 S.Ct. 47, 27 L.Ed.2d 53 (1970), the tenth circuit considered the reasonableness of a union constitutional provision that barred members classified as "not working at the trade" from voting on any and all union matters. A union member employed on a full-time basis in another field challenged his disfranchisement. Despite the broad ambit of the challenged union rule, the court limited inquiry to the rule's application to voting on wage scales. Since "those not primarily dependent on the printing business for their livelihood . . do not have the vital interest in wage scales which is present in those who are first and foremost printers . . . [w]e believe that the regulation is reasonable and does not violate the Act." Id. at 1298.
Unlike the attenuated interest of the plaintiff in Williams, the interest of laid-off workers in matters that will alter or effectively extinguish their recall rights is a most vital one. Recall rights represent the laid-off employees' only hope of once again pursuing their livelihood in the company where they have been employed and have acquired a degree of seniority. The Local represented both Tube and Motor employees but those employees had interests that as events transpired became antagonistic. The good standing provision permitted the Motor employees to take over the transaction of Local business at a critical time, to exclude the laid-off Tube employees from attending the meeting at which their vital interests were placed in jeopardy, and to strip the excluded Tube employees of their recall seniority. The only employees adversely affected by the vote that occurred at the closed meeting were those who were excluded. Yet, they not only could not vote on a matter of utmost concern to them, they could not even be heard on the merits of the issue."
Indeed. There's never been any shortage of overly-stirred emotions and resulting delusional fantasies around this place. 😉..."Righteous Cause"..."Army" of leonidas...."Spartans"...."Knights"..."war"...."many battles"..."fought with valor"...even "dire wolves"....one can't even keep count of all such self-deceptive, outright fantasies at times. None of that childishness even addresses the most truly monstrous delusion your group suffers from though, that of absurdly fantasizing that any/all of you are magically "worth" being artificially advanced in "seniority" at least a decade of work years and experience over ANYONE else ANYWHERE!!! 😉 Now THERE'S some truly world-class self-deception that's fully worthy of study!
Perhaps Dr. Sagan should have specifically noted greed and "expectations" as well within that, but I've no argument with his general observation. "Human beings have a demonstrated talent for self-deception when their emotions are stirred." Case in point = prechill dec 2007: "Ho Ho Ho!. Saint Nic is coming to town!" 🙂
cleardirect
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How did this demand workout?
No MCF. ALPA told you no money unless you got back to the table to negotiate a joint contract.
But if you want to complain about pay parity. Talk to usapa. They have been the bargaining agent for 5 years. There is no west MEC to object. No roadblock to pay parity except usapa' s lack of skill negotiating.
Usapa has had more time then ALPA. Why has usapa failed?
- Status
