US IAM Fleet Service topic 3/20-

[Edward]

New topic. ALL US Fleet Service issues here. Do NOT make it personal as your post will be deleted(not edited) & member making offending post subject to suspension.

 

[roabilly]

New topic. ALL US Fleet Service issues here. Do NOT make it personal as your post will be deleted(not edited) & member making offending post subject to suspension.

Thanks Edward...

This thread’s gonna be hoppin’ from time to time due to impending elections.

We promise tahh behave... ‘n respect one another! Thanks for bearin’ with us over tha past several years! Yahh gottah have grey hair or two by now!

 

[orioleman]

O-man,

As 1 of the 3 GC members, we are fighting the good fight. CL and JK complete the GC. We follow the contract as written. What more can I say, we are very experienced at grievance procedures and contract language interpretation.

P. Rez

thanks for the update P Rez. Wanted the rest of the system to see the change thats going on in

phx keep up the great job.

 

[JoeDirt]

O-man,

As 1 of the 3 GC members, we are fighting the good fight. CL and JK complete the GC. We follow the contract as written. What more can I say, we are very experienced at grievance procedures and contract language interpretation.

P. Rez

This is good news for PHX fleet.

 

[Tim Nelson]

QUOTE (Jester @ Mar 18 2009, 03:05 PM)
How about addressing the issue? Would you want a dentist little formal education in dentistry? Okay, bad example in your case... but would you want a surgeon who experience with a knife was as a butcher in a meat market? Call me "crazy" but I demand trained and educated people to managed professional positions, and that includes the union "leadership".

So Inquires Jester.

Jester, I believe all union members demand trained and educated people in the positions of leadership. The IAM has put forth more $ into training and education than any other union and has its own distinct training center.

I presume your reference within the context of the "IAM Journal" was directed towards the INTL Prez and VPs of the IAM. Within that context, I find no evidence that your hypothesis that these guys are intellectually 'less savvy' than corporate management is true unless you limit your recognition of intelligence to the measuring of classroom 'book smart' degrees. Speaking as someone with a Master's education, I have found no evidence that I have any greater 'intelligence' after university degrees than before. That would be cool if it were true but unfortunately for me and others, who have been fortunate enough to obtain a fair level of education, it simply isn't the case.

However, there is a great pile of evidence against your hypothesis. The INTL IAM Prez is a very bright, well spoken gent who is often asked to testify on Capital hill as an expert in US trade policy, representational issues, and other Capital Hill matters. I presume he even sits on National Committees. I don't have any knowledge on how he obtained his vast education but it's readily apparent he has tons of it and it isn't restrictive to university classroom 'book' smarts.

regards,
Tim Nelson
IAM Local Chairman, 1487, Chicago

 

[700UW]

Tim,
I do believe Buffy and numerous other IAM reps have done the National Labor College and obtained degrees.

I on the other hand would rather have someone in a leadership role that rose from the battles and trenches than to come straight from college.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Tim,
I do believe Buffy and numerous other IAM reps have done the National Labor College and obtained degrees.

I on the other hand would rather have someone in a leadership role that rose from the battles and trenches than to come straight from college.

True. I think battle scars crafted on the body as opposed to names on a piece of paper is what I'd perfer also.

regards,
Tim Nelson
IAM Local Chairman, 1487, Chicago

 

[Tim Nelson]

roabilly said,
I’m ain’t sure exactly what yer referring to... but... If there are any “weak linksâ€￾ in the current assembly of committeemen and officers, I’m certain that this can be rectified!

The same Network of Solidarity that made the last democratic overhaul possible... is still fully capable of exercising the collective will of the Membership. All we need are particulars... send me a private message with your concerns... or better yet...send them to Nelson.

The next round of elections can’t be too far away... and we will need feedback from all stations system wide. The New Direction is still a work in progress... with perhaps a few additional changes, we can achieve the true voice of the Membership.

Roabilly,
I haven't mobilized the social networking of late, however, when it is mobilized I'm thinking it will incorporate not only previous vehicles but also new ones.

As for the New Direction, I presume a campaign would start in early January.

Right now, the biggest issue is representing and communicating with members, and making sure the voice of the masses are not only heard but acted upon. The members will decide in February if their District leaders have passed that test.

As aside, just to give a general update on some of the District happenings for the US AIRWAYS members, there are many grievances headed to arbitration, I wanna say over 30 but I'm not sure of the number. Among them are some that are corporate [as opposed to personal] in nature. One of those is the medical arbitration. Other grievances that had to be processed up the grievance procedure and are now at or past step 3 levels are grievances associated with the attendance policy. A 3rd item that involves the US AIRWAYS folks is the deletion and additon of certain contract language [words] that your company felt compelled to change unilaterally. For a specific recap on the progress, folks should contact their Local Chairman and/or their AGC for the progress and resolution of these issues.

regards,
Tim Nelson
IAM Local Chairman, 1487, Chicago

 

[Jester]

Jester, I believe all union members demand trained and educated people in the positions of leadership. The IAM has put forth more $ into training and education than any other union and has its own distinct training center.

I presume your reference within the context of the "IAM Journal" was directed towards the INTL Prez and VPs of the IAM. Within that context, I find no evidence that your hypothesis that these guys are intellectually 'less savvy' than corporate management is true unless you limit your recognition of intelligence to the measuring of classroom 'book smart' degrees. Speaking as someone with a Master's education, I have found no evidence that I have any greater 'intelligence' after university degrees than before. That would be cool if it were true but unfortunately for me and others, who have been fortunate enough to obtain a fair level of education, it simply isn't the case.

However, there is a great pile of evidence against your hypothesis. The INTL IAM Prez is a very bright, well spoken gent who is often asked to testify on Capital hill as an expert in US trade policy, representational issues, and other Capital Hill matters. I presume he even sits on National Committees. I don't have any knowledge on how he obtained his vast education but it's readily apparent he has tons of it and it isn't restrictive to university classroom 'book' smarts.

regards,
Tim Nelson
IAM Local Chairman, 1487, Chicago

Tim,

Sorry, "soft" degrees don't impress me, especially from de facto diploma mills which hold organization seminars with fancy titles over the weekends at which everyone passes from its own training centers no less either. The only seminars I can respect are from those in which the participants have already earned REAL degrees from REAL universities in areas for which they have extensive background and education being held by recognized and independent organizations.

You are trying to convince me that those uneducated "leaders" are part of some holy Delphic methodology to provide guidance to its members, when it reality is appears to be a gang of Good Ole Boys who have stuck around a long time kissing arse up the union ladder. You speak of a "great pile of evidence against" my views, but then provide nothing more in the way of proof than the IAM President being asked to lecture on a soapbox by pandering Congressional leaders attempting to secure votes for the next election? How about a complete listing of all FORMAL education from accredited universities and colleges for all the union leaders from the national to the local level? I suspect I would need a 3x5 card to complete it. This union is attempting to match wits with highly trained corporate types with strong backgrounds in finance, management, accounting and law, and you think the membership is on equal footing for negotiations with this "leadership"?

You want some "great pile of evidence"? How about the crap contract? What mental midget thought it was a good idea to allow management to dictate absentee policy outside of the contract? Let us not forget that "brilliant" Change of Control clause either... how did that work for you? You expect me and people to trust your opinion as to the genius of this "leadership" while by your own admission that you "don't have any knowledge on how he obtained his vast education but it's readily apparent..." It is certainly "apparent" all right this is the most anti-intellectual, anti-educational group I have had the sad experience of having been a member and you have done absolutely nothing to convince me otherwise.

So Chastises Jester.

 

[700UW]

The NLC is a full accredited college. The change of control was lost because it was numerous stock offerings to several or ore companies, not one entity buying US.

And if this union is so bad, why does it represent WN's CSAs and RSAs and they are amongst the highest paid in the industry?

And the same goes to CO's FAs, care to explain that?

And it took two bankruptcies and three rounds of concessions for the CBAs to be lowered to the level of the former HP, and you dont get it all back in your first CBA.

 

[Old Guy]

Tim,

Sorry, "soft" degrees don't impress me, especially from de facto diploma mills which hold organization seminars with fancy titles over the weekends at which everyone passes from its own training centers no less either. The only seminars I can respect are from those in which the participants have already earned REAL degrees from REAL universities in areas for which they have extensive background and education being held by recognized and independent organizations.

You are trying to convince me that those uneducated "leaders" are part of some holy Delphic methodology to provide guidance to its members, when it reality is appears to be a gang of Good Ole Boys who have stuck around a long time kissing arse up the union ladder. You speak of a "great pile of evidence against" my views, but then provide nothing more in the way of proof than the IAM President being asked to lecture on a soapbox by pandering Congressional leaders attempting to secure votes for the next election? How about a complete listing of all FORMAL education from accredited universities and colleges for all the union leaders from the national to the local level? I suspect I would need a 3x5 card to complete it. This union is attempting to match wits with highly trained corporate types with strong backgrounds in finance, management, accounting and law, and you think the membership is on equal footing for negotiations with this "leadership"?

You want some "great pile of evidence"? How about the crap contract? What mental midget thought it was a good idea to allow management to dictate absentee policy outside of the contract? Let us not forget that "brilliant" Change of Control clause either... how did that work for you? You expect me and people to trust your opinion as to the genius of this "leadership" while by your own admission that you "don't have any knowledge on how he obtained his vast education but it's readily apparent..." It is certainly "apparent" all right this is the most anti-intellectual, anti-educational group I have had the sad experience of having been a member and you have done absolutely nothing to convince me otherwise.

So Chastises Jester.

Jester
You don't know your history. You have a POS contract because the ramp became employes at will. They voted out the union. You to may work for a HR, or any business degree discipline. Get involved and run for a position. Or move on. You don't sound very happy. Last time I looked management was in charge. Sick time is in your contract. Absenteeism isn't. You were hired for X amount of hours. You punch a time clock. Abuse by a few ruined it for all. Besides this is basic HR stuff. You already know all this. Worker's comp the same.

OG

 

[roabilly]

Tim,

The only seminars I can respect are from those in which the participants have already earned REAL degrees from REAL universities in areas for which they have extensive background and education being held by recognized and independent organizations."

"This union is attempting to match wits with highly trained corporate types with strong backgrounds in finance, management, accounting and law, and you think the membership is on equal footing for negotiations with this "leadership"?

In this Bernard Lawrence "Bernie" Madoff era of Corporate Distrust... these very acumens and qualifications will assure you that I ... along with most true union members will balk at these credentials!

Perhaps, you should contact Mr. Madoff. He, along with his associates are "highly trained corporate types" and they have virtually all of the educational specifics that you demand!

Hmmm... maybe the “Bag Room Couchâ€￾ could be auctioned on E-Bay as Historical Airline Memorabilia, and the proceeds could be invested, and squandered in future corporate schemes!

So lampoons...

Roabilly

 

[Tim Nelson]

quote name='Jester' date='Mar 22 2009, 07:26 AM' post='675574']
Tim,

Sorry, "soft" degrees don't impress me, especially from de facto diploma mills which hold organization seminars with fancy titles over the weekends at which everyone passes from its own training centers no less either. The only seminars I can respect are from those in which the participants have already earned REAL degrees from REAL universities in areas for which they have extensive background and education being held by recognized and independent organizations....How about a complete listing of all FORMAL education from accredited universities and colleges for all the union leaders from the national to the local level? I suspect I would need a 3x5 card to complete it. This union is attempting to match wits with highly trained corporate types with strong backgrounds in finance, management, accounting and law, and you think the membership is on equal footing for negotiations with this "leadership"?

My hypothesis doesn't recognize formal education as an indicator of a competitive labor advocate, although I would agree with you that formal education is appropriate if I were describing credentials of management CEO's.

At any rate, I'm unclear on your hypothesis now since you originally were talking specifically about the union leadership matching wits but now have broadened your hypothesis to include the matching of wits between the union and highly trained corporate types. If we are talking about the entire union in the context of negotiations then why would you conclude that 'the union' doesn't have "Top" attorneys [google Bush & associates], economists, and accountants that have just as much formal training as the corporations? Some of the IAM's labor attorneys are so distinquished that they are writers and contributor's in the sacred Railway Labor Act reference book that is often used by judges in the Law reference libraries. Therefore, your hypothesis is absurd with no evidence.

The labor leaders have experts who can translate and interpret the language of the economy, the language of finances, and the language of the law. They must carefully balance that information with the language of justice that is well known by the masses standing at the city's gates.

I can assure you with the utmost confidence that the language of justice isn't taught in formal classes that lift the name of the dollar on high. Union leaders are the horses that the masses chose to communicate its voice by using the language of justice.

You are trying to convince me that those uneducated "leaders" are part of some holy Delphic methodology to provide guidance to its members, when it reality is appears to be a gang of Good Ole Boys...

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I'm just attacking your hypothesis as nonsense and rubbish. The onus is on you to prove your hypothesis since I'm not the one making the claim that the union can't match wits with those who have formal education.

You want some "great pile of evidence"? How about the crap contract? What mental midget thought it was a good idea to allow management to dictate absentee policy outside of the contract? Let us not forget that "brilliant" Change of Control clause either... how did that work for you? You expect me and people to trust your opinion as to the genius of this "leadership" while by your own admission that you "don't have any knowledge on how he obtained his vast education but it's readily apparent..."
So Chastises Jester.

Jester, neither that contract or the last few ones before it were a result of section 6 negotiations. Nonetheless, I seem to recall up to $6 pay raises for many of our brothers and sisters from the west and class 2 stations within the context of a company losing millions and an economy on the catastrophic edge. Do you think Parker would have treated you as well without a union?

Even going through two bankruptcies, the US AIRWAYS unionized workers came out so so so far ahead than non-union delta rampers.

As far as management changing attendance policies with apparent contract violations, that's still a unresolved issue. What I can tell you is that your current policy would have been more restrictive if not for the company already making concessions after union discussion that resulted in more favorable conditions for the workers. Whatever the case, the union still isn't satisifed with the changes and is headed to arbitration, but we wouldn't be having this discussion if you had no union...no voice...no 'nuttn'. You probably wouldn't even have your couch.

As far as the 'genius' of this leadership, and expecting others to trust my opinion, I never made such a claim. It's not that the masses should serve or trust the leadership but rather the leadership should serve the members while putting trust in what is right and fair. I would ask that the masses trust nobody other than Justice. People change but justice doesn't change. The leadership must have the pulse of the masses and their cries for justice and if they wobble from that then I would think it is obligatory for the masses to serve justice.

regards,
Tim Nelson
IAM Local Chairman, 1487, chicago

 

[freedom]

I think both sides are correct ...


we need people with battle scars , and we need people with formal education ....


the more diverse we are , the more view points we can encompass , making us stronger .



I think the most imporant aspect for our leaders is that they have open minds ...

 

[roabilly]

Quote: Tim Nelson

"Jester,

At any rate, I'm unclear on your hypothesis now since you originally were talking specifically about the union leadership matching wits but now have broadened your hypothesis to include the matching of wits between the union and highly trained corporate types. If we are talking about the entire union in the context of negotiations then why would you conclude that 'the union' doesn't have "Top" attorneys [google Bush & associates], economists, and accountants that have just as much formal training as the corporations? Some of the IAM's labor attorneys are so distinquished that they are writers and contributor's in the sacred Railway Labor Act reference book that is often used by judges in the Law reference libraries. Therefore, your hypothesis is absurd with no evidence."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim...

You would think that certain highly intelligent and educated individuals would understand more about their UNION. Unless of course they aren’t really members... hmmm...

None of this should be necessary to explain. We have known this stuff for over a decade... they should too!

They’s ahh Skunk intah Hen House!

So pungently reveals...

Roabilly