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US pilot labor thread 6/21-6/27

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What is going on with the E-190? Is management considering selling the E-190? Are there negotiations going on about the fleet count? Is there possible relief by USAPA for some carrots?

Here's what's going on with the B737 Replacement:

New E-190's are going to be delivered even while management starts furloughing the pilots flying the aircraft that are already in service.

Pilots bumped off of the B737 and A320 to the E-190 on the latest East pilot bid will have to start training in mid-August (i.e., the height of vacation and thunderstorm season) to be in place by October 1, thus under-staffing the Group II fleet. And all the B767 and A330 pilots that are being cut are going to need to be trained to be in their new seats by October 1, or those airplanes will be over-staffed during the fall pull-down.

The overworked Training Dept. will not possibly be able to train all of these people for what amounts to a hurry-up-and-furlough, short-sighted bid. Especially on the E-190, where already trained pilots will be leaving (through furlough, and pilots just resigning to go elsewhere before they get furloughed), while new airplanes are being delivered.

And those airplanes also need professionals to staff the cabins. There will probably be flight attendants leaving in herds, too, thinking "How soon will this place be out of business anyway, and do I want to spend Christmas Eve with my family, or trying to weasel two bucks out of an irate for a Coke?"

The TV satellite trucks are already rolling to an airport near you, to get a good spot to record the Annual US Airways Christmas Meltdown.

This year's could be the granddaddy of them all...
 
If Parker had been granted one wish, in an attempt to permanently divide the pilots with hatred developed by broken promises, lawsuits and money lost(everyone's, not just east or west), could he have even dreamed for something as perfect as Lee Seehem? I'm sure NWA management, among others, also appreciated his efforts!

I think you meant to say th Nic award. It and the west's refusal to address it's flaws are what gave Mr. Seehem his chance.
 
I think you meant to say th Nic award. It and the west's refusal to address it's flaws are what gave Mr. Seehem his chance.

The west tried several times to negotiate in good faith with the east.

The east position, post Nicolau, remained unchanged from their position pre Nicolau. The east essentially demanded that the west accept a DOH re-write of the Nicolau list.

"Furlough protection" was the east's byword the entire time and they felt that because of the "sacrifices" that east pilots had made the west pilots should bear the brunt of any future furloughs.

At least they are getting their wish. Now west pilots who were working lineholders on the day of the merger will be furloughed and east pilots who had been on the street for periods as long as four years will remain employed.

But that is not a windfall. It is fair because it is fair.
 
The west tried several times to negotiate in good faith with the east.

Clearly..as exemplified by your Comm Chairperson's...ahem "Moderator" at PHX's famous "Ho Ho Ho!, St Nic is coming to town!" postings, and overall hysterical demeanor. Then we'll always have your "genius" Johnny-Boy's "It will be all out warfare" to treausre as a perfect model of reasoned response. Heck; One of your people, who claimed to have worked on your MEC..responded exuberantly with "Booyashaka!" over the Nic obscenity. Spare us all any additional BS about EVER even offering up any earnest post-Nic "negotiation"...much less "in good faith". Are you even remotely serious in attempting to claim the least bit of measurable west flexibility on the Nic? Again...spare us all, or at least name even ONE issue that was honestly open to substantive "negotiation" by the west. You've people shown on video going virtually apoplectic over even the word "fences". The "righteous" outcry over even east pilots regaining left seats, striclty thorugh east attrition caused a "righteous" uproar out your way. If you seek to color the west as, in ANY way, shape or form, the least bit "reasonable".....words simply fail me.

Being one who, early on, posted continually with the vain hopes of gaining even some slight west awareness that Nic wouldn't ever work out...and having never ONCE received any semblance of any west attempts at even considering compromises at any level....well...all I can say to your last is "Nice Try" at distorting reality, and rewriting history.
 
The west tried several times to negotiate in good faith with the east.

The east position, post Nicolau, remained unchanged from their position pre Nicolau. The east essentially demanded that the west accept a DOH re-write of the Nicolau list.

"Furlough protection" was the east's byword the entire time and they felt that because of the "sacrifices" that east pilots had made the west pilots should bear the brunt of any future furloughs.

At least they are getting their wish. Now west pilots who were working lineholders on the day of the merger will be furloughed and east pilots who had been on the street for periods as long as four years will remain employed.

But that is not a windfall. It is fair because it is fair.

Two things to look at:

First, the AWA MEC's greed put you in harms way by not coming to terms that a joint contract would not be agreed upon by the East as long as the NIC award was not addressed. Look no further than to your MEC and then ask them why you are getting furloughed. Ask them why they did not listen to the Company, ALPA National or the East. Simply put... you got screwed by your own guys.

Second, Hard to believe that the bottom 175 guys were lineholders at AWA which had 1750 total pilot positons. That is the bottom 10% of your pilots. Are you trying to tell us that the reserve positions are being bid on by the senior guys at AWA? Sounds like you are over stating the real figures to try to gain pitty.
 
the AWA MEC's greed put you in harms way by not coming to terms that a joint contract would not be agreed upon by the East as long as the NIC award was not addressed. Look no further than to your MEC and then ask them why you are getting furloughed. Ask them why they did not listen to the Company, ALPA National or the East. Simply put... you got screwed by your own guys.

Huh? Correct me if I am wrong, but the AWA MEC followed the rules and procedures that were agreed to for resolution of the issues. The East ALPA members, through their ALPA reps, made their case and eventually a ruling was issued that East folks basically refused to accept and then went and changed their union as a solution to that ruling.

Assuming that the company survives long enough this whole mess will arrive in a court and a court will need to first determine whether by forming USAPA that East could effectively neuter Nicolau. That is the real question that I want to see addressed.
 
Huh? Correct me if I am wrong, but the AWA MEC followed the rules and procedures that were agreed to for resolution of the issues. The East ALPA members, through their ALPA reps, made their case and eventually a ruling was issued that East folks basically refused to accept and then went a changed their union as a solution to that ruling.

Assuming that the company survives long enough this whole mess will arrive in a court and a court will need to first determine whether by forming USAPA that East could effectively neuter Nicolau. That is the real question that I want to see addressed.

Hmm...yet another west variant on "We won the dice game!!"...and "We'll just SEE if the east can DO anything about it!!" In fullest fairness to the poster: I submit that this represents the most civilized heights of any/all west "reasonable" responses regarding any supposed willingness to "negotiate".....and always has.
 
Thanks East. I accept that comment in the spirit it was offered.
 
Thanks East. I accept that comment in the spirit it was offered.

I hope so, as I meant no personal disrespect., nor was the "civilized" observation a trite one. Your postings have never been amongst the hysterical sort. My point was that the west postion's been steadfastly one of "Yaay!...We got our Nic!!, and you'll have to fight us to change ANY part!"..which is a far cry from having the least bit of notions towards any compromise efforts.

In fairness: I'm equally intractable in my belief that any Union that eschews DOH as an essential core principle...is nothing more than a doomed fool's errand. I've zero issues with providing for protections for those less senior, via fences/etc, in any merger scenario. While there'll clearly be no west agreement with my first notion...one would think that even the least consideration for the protective ideas would have been worthy of evaluation and actual thought out west. That, quite clearly..was...NOT seen to be so out there.

I challenge any/all to find any east postings equivelant to "Leonidas: I want the captain seat..and most of all, I want every single east pilot to pay for it"...Prechillil: 'Ho Ho Ho!...St Nic is coming to town!"...Junebug: "Booyashaka!"....AWA320: "Now this group doesnt have to talk and we arent' going to"..and just far, far too many others of identical "sentiments" that would choke the bandwidth here.

Opposite that?..Show me/all even ONE posting from the west that indicated even the slightest thought towards ever even considering, much less attempting any compromise.
 
Huh? Correct me if I am wrong, but the AWA MEC followed the rules and procedures that were agreed to for resolution of the issues. The East ALPA members, through their ALPA reps, made their case and eventually a ruling was issued that East folks basically refused to accept and then went and changed their union as a solution to that ruling.

Assuming that the company survives long enough this whole mess will arrive in a court and a court will need to first determine whether by forming USAPA that East could effectively neuter Nicolau. That is the real question that I want to see addressed.

Well then if it is follow the rules then what are you complaining about the new union for? The rules were followed and hence a new union was certified by the NMB. See how it works? Like a double edge sword that cuts both ways.

The NIC award had a windfall and West, East, ALPA National and the Company all knew it. The AWA MEC took the hard line stance and now they are gone. Had they listened to ALPA National, the Company and the East and work in good faith then the situation might be different. They bet the house and lost everything. So the GREED of the AWA MEC killed ALPA and the lottery ticket.

BTW if you think this has anything to do with the company survival. Then you are a fool. The profitability of this company is sole responsibility of the management team. All other employees are just paid to do a job for a days worth of pay.
 
If anybody knows of any pilots acting in such a way as to deny another employee the jumpseat, PLEASE PM their names if you know them. I find such pilots unsafe and I choose to NOT work on the a/c with them. Thank you!
 
Anybody heard any new numbers of VLOA's? I guess the bid window for them is closed now.
 
If anybody knows of any pilots acting in such a way as to deny another employee the jumpseat, PLEASE PM their names if you know them. I find such pilots unsafe and I choose to NOT work on the a/c with them. Thank you!

So you would prefer that they be distracted by the presence of someone who has actively pursued a policy that threatens their career? Now you want to second-guess that pilots ability to work under those conditions? Should they fly fatigued, just to get the jumpseater to work?

The jumpseat should be suspended for everybody until a suitable solution can be agreed upon and the animosity between the two groups has been allowed to cool. But that would take management leadership, and so far there has been none.

But if you feel you would be unable to carry out your duties, then you should contact USAPA and tell them you want them to take action to unite the pilot groups. But don't do it more than once, or you might get sued. :lol: :lol:
 
If anybody knows of any pilots acting in such a way as to deny another employee the jumpseat, PLEASE PM their names if you know them. I find such pilots unsafe and I choose to NOT work on the a/c with them. Thank you!


:stupid:
 
So you would prefer that they be distracted by the presence of someone who has actively pursued a policy that threatens their career? Now you want to second-guess that pilots ability to work under those conditions? Should they fly fatigued, just to get the jumpseater to work?

The jumpseat should be suspended for everybody until a suitable solution can be agreed upon and the animosity between the two groups has been allowed to cool. But that would take management leadership, and so far there has been none.
That has to be one of the dumbest things I've seen you post...and you've said some stupid %&^t...

FYI, the CP's from both sides already have been given direction from the company on this...and you won't like it, it is NOT what you are recommending. A CA claiming to be unable to perform under this issue is reeled in, if it's the FO thats the problem, they BOTH get reeled in, the FO for his marginal emotional state, and the CA for his inability to control the cockpit. And by reeled in, it will include time off...or worse...( by the way, this is straight from a CP) The company will replace a CA who is too fragile to control him/herself...because the company deems this relatively trivial, considering what type of emergency could ACTUALLY arise, and their fragile state will render them incapacitated.

You guys seem to think your little tantrums are going to bring the company to it's knees...

Thats funny.
 
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