US Pilot Labor Thread

[electricjet98]

It's all entirely the fault of the east= Understood. Offering length of service and fences at Wye River doesn't count in the least, nor does DOH with fences at any time. How utterly insane it would be to have simply protected either/both sides from predatory invasions from the other, and allowed each group to retain any/all gains from their respective attrition. Understood again...and this from "Ho Ho Ho! St Nic is coming to town" herself. Too "funny" for words.

Any constructive thoughts on how best to proceed from here? It seems that the lines have been so firmly entrenched that there's little room to even breathe the word compromise anymore. I wish things had gone much, much differently from the beginning.

I should probably know better than this, but I'll try to respond in as responsible a manner as possible. Where this reponse leads us is entirely up to you.

Cut & paste from an earlier post:

Where ALPA went wrong...Arbitration.

The ALPA process was fine, even honorable, up to the final step; arbitration. Rather than the arbitration that we knew that we were grinding towards, the two MEC's should have agreed early in the process to make the final step "Baseball Style" arbitration (please don't confuse with McCain's ill-conceived abortion for union/airline contract negotiations). Both methods are "Final & Binding", the difference lies in the process that gets them to that point. Regular arbitration (the method that was used) is a naturally devisive process. The two MEC/MC teams stake out there positions at opposite ends of the spectrum in an attempt to position themselves in the most advantageous manner. The "psychology" is that the arbitrator will "split the baby down the middle". Therefore, any effort by a MRC/MC team to seek compromise or move their position toward the middle is seen as a weakening position by their pilot members. The pilot members demand that the teams actually move away from the center, hoping that when the arbitrator makes his decision, that it will be more on their side of "fair". A very limited amount of effort is invested by the two teams in determining what compromises can be made in their position...it's simply easier to let the arbitrator make the hard decisions and then blame him afterwards. We all saw it happen!

"Baseball Style" arbitration demands reasonable compromise from both sides. The two teams know from the very beginning that the arbitrator will not write his own award with conditions and restrictions, but will instead, choose one of the two final positions which he sees as the most fair. The two teams will see that if their position is seen by the arbitrator as slightly further from a fair award than the other side's position, he will choose the other side's...even though it is not completely fair either! They will realize that in order to be selected as the winning award, they will need to consider the other team's concerns and move slightly closer to "fair", than the other team. In effect, the team that is less willing to solicit and determine what reasonable compromises its pilot members are willing to accept will be punished by having forced the arbitrator to choose the other side's position. It's far more work because it forces both sides to involve their pilot members and give consideration to the other sides concerns in an effort to find reasonable compromise. After much back and forth, as both teams make compromises in an effort to show the arbitrator that their position is more fair, the arbitrator will choose between the two positions. But by that time, the most onerous conditions have been compromised away and the final award is something that both side can live with and can see what the other side gave-up to get to that position.

So in a nutshell, I see mistakes made by both sides and enabled, even encouraged, by ALPA Nat'l Merger Policy. That, however, is all water under the bridge. The question now is how do we proceed in a constructive manner, devoid of vindictive or retaliatory efforts from both sides?

 

[EastUS]

So in a nutshell, I see mistakes made by both sides and enabled, even encouraged, by ALPA Nat'l Merger Policy. That, however, is all water under the bridge. The question now is how do we proceed in a constructive manner, devoid of vindictive or retaliatory efforts from both sides?

To the quoted thoughts above =Agreed in full sir.I see little room for much changing of the landscape at this point though. Personally; I believe that DOH with fences should suffice. I'm just one person though.

PS: I neglected to note that I'm also no fan of ever furloughing anyone with more length of service than another. A "new hire"/less service time anywhere should go before anyone that's been on the line longer, regardless of which "side" they are from, imho.

Last addition = I feel that the recent debacle involving west pilots with more LOS getting set for furlough, with some east pilots remaining with less LOS, clearly shows us all the true "value", and "Fair and Equitable" nature of "Relative Seniority" in action.

 

[ussnark]

Recenty some posters here spewed their usual unwarranted castigations regarding my choices of flying the aircraft by the book.

Had your narrative resembled "the book" in any way, shape or form, not one person would have made one comment. Your narrative, however, appeared to be plagiarized from a Hollywood script, with bits from the fictional "24" thrown in, as well as "advocating" actions patently unsafe in any operation (cruising into the gate area with fuse plugs ready to blow, with the likelihood of maiming or killing ramp workers).

You, if a pilot at all, are a danger to all of us and not just the profession.

Then, you go on to imply length of runway had something to do with todays accident in Spain, as if you know the cause, not five hours after the accident. You have no idea what happened, yet you presume to pontificate. Amazing.

Are you the HP check pilot I called the cops on and you got "detained" for no ID?

 

[nostradamus]

Recenty some posters here spewed their usual unwarranted castigations regarding my choices of flying the aircraft by the book. "Justification" provided had to do with the MAD airport and its "Space Shuttle" runway - "longest runway in Europe. What can go wrong there? I don't need to follow instructions during an emergency," they wrote.

Please contact the NTSB and tell them you solved the cause of this terrible tragedy by watching initial news media accounts.

You are good. You did this without the troublesome information to study, like the voice and data recorders, weather and aircraft maintenance logs.

 

[EastUS]

Had your narrative resembled "the book" in any way, shape or form, not one person would have made one comment. Your narrative, however, appeared to be plagiarized from a Hollywood script, with bits from the fictional "24" thrown in, as well as "advocating" actions patently unsafe in any operation (cruising into the gate area with fuse plugs ready to blow, with the likelihood of maiming or killing ramp workers).

You, if a pilot at all, are a danger to all of us and not just the profession.

Then, you go on to imply length of runway had something to do with todays accident in Spain, as if you know the cause, not five hours after the accident. You have no idea what happened, yet you presume to pontificate. Amazing.

"Are you the HP check pilot I called the cops on and you got "detained" for no ID?" Quite honestly...I feel it's far more likely that this is a child of some west person, or simply some bizarre "case" that posts on these boards for reasons unknown. It must be noted that the AWA folks have a very respectable safety record..and this just doesn't seem even remotely possible to me, if one assumes that poster to be at ALL typical of ANY actual line pilot out there. Good fortune only covers so much ground. I could be wrong....

 

[electricjet98]

To the quoted thoughts above =Agreed in full sir.I see little room for much changing of the landscape at this point though. Personally; I believe that DOH with fences should suffice. I'm just one person though.

PS: I neglected to note that I'm also no fan of ever furloughing anyone with more length of service than another. A "new hire"/less service time anywhere should go before anyone that's been on the line longer, regardless of which "side" they are from, imho.

Last addition = I feel that the recent debacle involving west pilots with more LOS getting set for furlough, with some east pilots remaining with less LOS, clearly shows us all the true "value", and "Fair and Equitable" nature of "Relative Seniority" in action.

"I see little room for much changing of the landscape at this point though." If you mean by that statement, that we cannot change the ground that we have already covered, I would agree. I would hope that others (yes, even ALPA) would be able to learn from our mistakes during the arbitration process. I sincerely believe that "Baseball-Style Arbitration would have forced both groups to gradually eliminate the most onerous elements of their proposal in an effort to get slightly closer to "fair" than the other side, and thus have their proposal selected.

"Personally; I believe that DOH with fences should suffice. I'm just one person though." On that, we'll disagree. But like you, I'm just one person.

This entire puzzle swings like a pendulum on a clock. When one side thinks it has the upper-hand, it has no thought of compromise while the other side seems open for discussion. Some from the east have said that the west should have compromised at Wye River when we "appeared" to have the upper-hand. Are those same people in favor of the east compromising now that they "appear" to have the upper-hand? If the pendulum swings back again in favor of the west (perhaps as the result of a lawsuit, judicial ruling or management actions), should the west be willing to compromise if the east hadn't been inclined earlier?

Back and forth, back and forth. Where do I get off this carnivale ride?

 

[nostradamus]

If the pendulum swings back again in favor of the west (perhaps as the result of a lawsuit, judicial ruling or management actions), should the west be willing to compromise if the east hadn't been inclined earlier?

Back and forth, back and forth. Where do I get off this carnivale ride?

Managements responsibility is to fire the people who are not contributing to the new union. We should start with a mix of the East and west pilots who are not paying dues. It is their legal responsibility to do so.

Before any talks continue this should be the priority of USAPA. No free rides.

 

[EastUS]

[ If the pendulum swings back again in favor of the west (perhaps as the result of a lawsuit, judicial ruling or management actions), should the west be willing to compromise if the east hadn't been inclined earlier?

Back and forth, back and forth. Where do I get off this carnivale ride?

I think if fair to note that I've previously posted myself as among the poorest candidates for the post of diplomat anywhere, and I'm clearly not very flexible within much of my belief structure. I don't personally believe that the political or legal zephyrs of any particular moment should dictate our behavior within this sad mess we have, or really any other of life's little or large trials. I feel that it's necessary to follow our actual beliefs, and not to fret overmuch on any given time's "point spread" if you will. That it's hugely inconvenient for all of us to have such an obvious dichotomy in what we feel to be Right, doesn't change my thinking on that.

Speaking again as but one person, in relation to what's possible via compromise: A huge blocking point for me is my firmly held belief that DOH is an essential building block for any functional Unionism to exist at all. To put it as gently as possible...there clearly exists...ummm..."some" slight disagreement with this belief within our pilot group as a whole. Over the last year; I've grudgingly come to accept and respect the fact that many out west differ completely with, what seems to me, an obvious and vital notion. That really shouldn't have been any big surprise, as no two people think along identical lines I suppose. That the situation's produced such emotional churning shouldn't have surprised me either, and I've been as much or more guilty than any of getting aboard the "Oh Yeah!??!...Well!..Up yours too!" bandwagon...and all of us doing so to no usefull effect..."Hey Kids!..Want some REAL fun!!??..Let's play an age-old game: Combine Threats to Livelihood with Philosophical Diversity!!" 😉

Anyway...ramble over. The bottom line for me personally = I can't see real compromise away from respecting DOH and "Time Served" as being Right...but I'd certainly like to see how best the extended scenario could be massaged, so as to avoid, and/or minimize any wholesale harm to any.

Whatever can be worked out and whatever the future holds for us...It's a genuine pleasure to finally be having some actually civil discussions here.

PS: It must also be farily noted that, without west participation within the Union....our discussions, however pleasant, are essentially moot herein.

 

[Phoenix]

... I don't personally believe that the political or legal zephyrs of any particular moment should dictate our behavior within this sad mess we have, or really any other of life's little or large trials. I feel that it's necessary to follow our actual beliefs...

Are "snapshot" and "zephyr" synonyms?

Had ALPA avoided the temptation of dues generation in exchange for principles, they could have kept both.

 

[nostradamus]

I my self appreciate the america west pilots help in safety and contract negotiations. Below is an editorial one of our sisters or brothers sent in, helping advance the airline pilot profession.

america west pilot, on board helping airline pilots cause, click here.


The comments that follow are interesting. Were any of the posters called into ground school?

 

[EastUS]

The comments that follow are interesting.

Yep..but not really suprising = "They're evil-USAPA easties!...I don't really know anything at all about the specific situations with any of those 8 guys..BUT: They all must be lying!" My pick of the litter here = " CloudDancerJul-20 @ 10:27 AM

Capt. Gross was completely accurate,...
I despise our management's lack of leadership and vision only SLIGHTY less than the vermin on the East Coast who are trying to destroy the America West pilot's jobs and have blocked our advancement illegally for over three years now."

Note the critical and defining "logical" element in establishing the "Truth" about fuel issues here = "and have blocked our advancement illegally for over three years now" Given that west flying's being seriously reduced, and it's always been claimed that "no one is going to commute to take east seats"...One wonders where said "advancement" was going to come from?...whether "legal", supposedly "moral", "fair and equitable" or otherwise?



Enough said methinks.

 

[ussnark]

Note the critical and defining "logical" element in establishing the "Truth" about fuel issues here = "and have blocked our advancement illegally for over three years now" Given that west flying's being seriously reduced, and it's always been claimed that "no one is going to commute to take east seats"...One wonders where said "advancement" was going to come from?...whether "legal", supposedly "moral", "fair and equitable" or otherwise?

Capt. Gross claims something he never had, a classic, spending money before one has it, counting one's chickens before they hatch.

On a public forum, he is trying to sell the idea that the westies are "entitled" to something they never had, ever. Spoiled brats.

 

[traderjake]

Managements responsibility is to fire the people who are not contributing to the new union. We should start with a mix of the East and west pilots who are not paying dues. It is their legal responsibility to do so.

I bet management is real eager to help USAPA raise funds for it's next newspaper ad.

When USAPA provides me with a bill, minus it's newspaper ad expenses, as required by law, I'll consider paying.

Getting someone fire is a long process. I'll have to pay eventually, but not today.

 

[dariencc]

I bet management is real eager to help USAPA raise funds for it's next newspaper ad.

You are so right. Better that we kowtow to management and they will surely reward us with treats. Worked great for Alpo.

When USAPA provides me with a bill, minus it's newspaper ad expenses, as required by law, I'll consider paying.

Getting someone fire is a long process. I'll have to pay eventually, but not today.

So Mr. Integrity has a plan. He will sleaze out of his legal obligation to pay as long as he possibly can. Then he'll pay up to save his sorry arse. What a shock.

Can't wait for your next lecture on ethics.

 

[EastUS]

You are so right. Better that we kowtow to management and they will surely reward us with treats. Worked great for Alpo.
So Mr. Integrity has a plan. He will sleaze out of his legal obligation to pay as long as he possibly can. Then he'll pay up to save his sorry arse. What a shock.

Can't wait for your next lecture on ethics.

I've always admired men of great conviction, that have the needed courage to see things out to the end....well...or..at least until things become the least bit threatening to them, or at all inconvenient in any way