US Pilots Labor Discussion 1/26- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[CallawayGolf]

What's really frightening is that you have outlined in a matter of minutes, and on an anonymous chat board, the secret play book to success. There is nothing secret about SW's success; it's common sense and nothing more. So if Parker and gang, or Greenberg at AIG, or whomever else in the majority of corporate America these days chooses to disregard this "magic" formula and embark on courses that emaciate their respective companies but stuffs their personal bank accounts, then there can be only one logical conclusion about this widespread business practice: it represents the worst of the human condition and is exactly what Karl Marx warned of. Marx couldn't have been more wrong but at the same time couldn't have been more right. America is being looted from within, and therein lies our greatest vulnerability. I wonder if those soldiers at Normandy or the Marines at Iwo Jima could have ever fathomed that their sacrifices would pave the way for world dominance by American corporations that then enabled this horrific draining of world labor and natural resources.

Okay so US should follow the WN model of success? Well then, let’s cut all 44 international destinations and an additional 87 domestic cities to match WNs impressive total of 68 domestic cities served. Then, we can fully establish a common fleet type on the A320 aircraft (A319s and A321s are okay for now, although the seating variations will limit US competitiveness as not all tails can fly interchangeably). The A330s, B757s, B767s, B737s, E190s will all have to go. So will Piedmont, PSA, and the other express partners.

Oh, and let’s cut out first class seating, assigned seating and the US Clubs. Uniforms will be replaced by khaki pants and a polo shirt and a theme park smile. Intercom announcements will need to be humorous so as to cheer up the single-class cabin passengers. US will need to stop booking tickets through the GDS and send everyone to the USAIRWAYS.COM website in order to save on commissions paid to Orbitz, Expedia and the like. Finally, US will need to lock in fuel prices and hope they steadily rise so as to generate 85% if its profits from hedging gains rather than from operating income. Are you sure US employees and its customers are ready to make these copycat changes in order to successfully manage the airline according to the WN playbook?

It should go without saying that WN is the most successful airline in the world. Taking care of employees who in turn take care of customers is no secret as this philosophy has been in management and sociology textbooks for decades. The no frills, lighthearted, cattle car approach to the business has paid off in spades for Kelleher. The problem with lauding WN and dreaming of greener pastures on their side of the terminal is that it isn’t going to happen at any of the legacy carriers, no matter who the CEO is.

In fact, hypothetically, what do you suppose the great Herb Kelleher himself would do if the BOD made him an offer he couldn’t refuse to be CEO of US Airways? Industry leading raises for everyone? Would he travel to all of the crew bases and stations to tell some jokes and win employees over with his wit and charm? Would he immediately trim routes and standardize the fleet independent of the long-term contract that are in place? What do you seriously think he could do within the legitimate constraints that is all that different that what Doug is doing?

BTW – our soldiers fought valiantly to protect and defend freedom and American ideals because they are/were patriots. It had nothing to do with a prideful imposition of their sense of business ethics on someone whose shoes they had never walked in. Most were happy to find a job upon their return an earn wages far less than a mainline pilot at US, even in 1945 dollars.

 

[End of USAPA]

Okay so US should follow the WN model of success? Well then, let’s cut all 44 international destinations and an additional 87 domestic cities to match WNs impressive total of 68 domestic cities served. Then, we can fully establish a common fleet type on the A320 aircraft (A319s and A321s are okay for now, although the seating variations will limit US competitiveness as not all tails can fly interchangeably). The A330s, B757s, B767s, B737s, E190s will all have to go. So will Piedmont, PSA, and the other express partners.

Oh, and let’s cut out first class seating, assigned seating and the US Clubs.

Bubba, you totally missed the boat with this one. I am not surprised. I totally agree with Aqua on this one- a lot of us on the east do! You missed the point bubba.

 

[luvn737s]

That's why I have to laugh at folks who say they want WN's contract. Most US pilots would drop over if they had to fly the type of schedules that make WN as productive as they are so that they can pay the wages they do.

And they do it on about 88 percent of LCC's break even load factor!

 

[EastUS]

Okay so US should follow the WN model of success?

Are you sure US employees and its customers are ready to make these copycat changes in order to successfully manage the airline according to the WN playbook?

It should go without saying that WN is the most successful airline in the world. Taking care of employees who in turn take care of customers is no secret as this philosophy has been in management and sociology textbooks for decades. .....

, no matter who the CEO is.

In fact, hypothetically, what do you suppose the great Herb Kelleher himself would do if the BOD made him an offer he couldn’t refuse to be CEO of US Airways?

What do you seriously think he could do within the legitimate constraints that is all that different that what Doug is doing?

BTW – our soldiers fought valiantly to protect and defend freedom and American ideals because they are/were patriots. It had nothing to do with a prideful imposition of their sense of business ethics on someone whose shoes they had never walked in.

"Okay so US should follow the WN model of success?" Clearly not from your perspective....I guess it's much better to flail around in an utterly clueless manner praying for "consolidation" and hoping the "Industry capacity" will indeed be "reduced" = "Help!...We can't actually run a competitive airline!...Someone help us!..We have no clue how to actually compete against ANYONE on any level!..All we know how to do is stick our own arms as deeply into the money trough as we can!" :blink:

"Taking care of employees who in turn take care of customers is no secret as this philosophy has been in management and sociology textbooks for decades. ..." Ummm... and the evidence for this philosophy existing at US as even an unimaginable concept is..um..what?

"..no matter who the CEO is." Ummm...sure..if you say so.

"In fact, hypothetically, what do you suppose the great Herb Kelleher himself would do if the BOD made him an offer he couldn’t refuse to be CEO of US Airways?". Not really predictable by either of us...we're not him...but, I'd sure love to see!!

"What do you seriously think he could do within the legitimate constraints that is all that different that what Doug is doing?" Oh I dunno...but I'd go with pretty much everything = Having and acting on an actual strategic vision...as opposed to desperately waiting/hoping/trying to close some external transaction that ensures obscene golden parachutes, exhibiting some/ANY evidenced concern for the employees, and some real leadership for starters.

Bottom line: Are you, even for a nanosecond, actually trying to make the argument that NOTHING at US is "management's fault"? :blink: ..and that no one could do immensely better than the current crop?

 

[john john]

Okay so US should follow the WN model of success? Well then, let’s cut all 44 international destinations and an additional 87 domestic cities to match WNs impressive total of 68 domestic cities served. Then, we can fully establish a common fleet type on the A320 aircraft (A319s and A321s are okay for now, although the seating variations will limit US competitiveness as not all tails can fly interchangeably). The A330s, B757s, B767s, B737s, E190s will all have to go. So will Piedmont, PSA, and the other express partners.

Sounds go to me US had a perfect chance to reinvent it self during bankruptcies

 

[BoeingBoy]

Sounds go to me US had a perfect chance to reinvent it self during bankruptcies

It didn't have the money to cover loses for the time it would have taken.

Jim

 

[EastUS]

That's why I have to laugh at folks who say they want WN's contract. Most US pilots would drop over if they had to fly the type of schedules that make WN as productive as they are so that they can pay the wages they do.

Um Hmm...Couldn't agree more...Yep; It's definately all the fault of the employees/pilots that things can't be done better and far more efficently at US. Perhaps you might "drop over", but many/most would appreciate returning to the days when a 4-day paid in at least the mid to higher 20's worth of hours.....

 

[BoeingBoy]

but many/most would appreciate returning to the days when a 4-day paid in at least the mid to higher 20's worth of hours.....

Ahhh...but is that "WN's contract"?

Jim

 

[Tiger 1050]

"Okay so US should follow the WN model of success?" Clearly not from your perspective....I guess it's much better to flail around in an utterly clueless manner praying for "consolidation" and hoping the "Industry capacity" will indeed be "reduced" = "Help!...We can't actually run a competitive airline!...Someone help us!..We have no clue how to actually compete against ANYONE on any level!..All we know how to do is stick our own arms as deeply into the money trough as we can!" :blink:

And that friends is EXACTLY what is going on! Right on East...

 

[CallawayGolf]

"Okay so US should follow the WN model of success?" Clearly not from your perspective....I guess it's much better to flail around in an utterly clueless manner praying for "consolidation" and hoping the "Industry capacity" will indeed be "reduced" = "Help!...We can't actually run a competitive airline!...Someone help us!..We have no clue how to actually compete against ANYONE on any level!..All we know how to do is stick our own arms as deeply into the money trough as we can!" :blink:

"Taking care of employees who in turn take care of customers is no secret as this philosophy has been in management and sociology textbooks for decades. ..." Ummm... and the evidence for this philosophy existing at US as even an unimaginable concept is..um..what?

"..no matter who the CEO is." Ummm...sure..if you say so.

"In fact, hypothetically, what do you suppose the great Herb Kelleher himself would do if the BOD made him an offer he couldn’t refuse to be CEO of US Airways?". Not really predictable by either of us...we're not him...but, I'd sure love to see!!

"What do you seriously think he could do within the legitimate constraints that is all that different that what Doug is doing?" Oh I dunno...but I'd go with pretty much everything = Having and acting on an actual strategic vision...as opposed to desperately waiting/hoping/trying to close some external transaction that ensures obscene golden parachutes, exhibiting some/ANY evidenced concern for the employees, and some real leadership for starters.

Bottom line: Are you, even for a nanosecond, actually trying to make the argument that NOTHING at US is "management's fault"? :blink: ..and that no one could do immensely better than the current crop?

My point is twofold – 1) that WN is not as perfect as so many make them out to be, and 2) that US leadership has been far more successful than most employees are willing to give them credit for.

I’ll say it again that WN is the world’s most successful airline. Of course most of their profits since 1992 (about 85% by some analysts account) have come from fuel hedging gains rather than operating income. That is exceptional management of fuel costs, but it also diminishes any statement that can be made about how they successfully manage operating profits. They gambled big on the non-operating side of the business and the payoff yielded a massive competitive advantage as WN could establish fares that were divorced from the open market prices on their largest or second largest expenditure. The majors, who all run substantially larger operations and consume substantially more fuel, never had the financial means to keep up with WN, especially as the competitive gap grew with more years of successful hedging. WN’s decision turned out to be sheer brilliance, but it hardly represents a failure of the majors when they never had the financial means to match WN in the fuel speculation arena.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25419436/

On the second part of my point, US management has been successful in many areas despite what many posters here seem to believe. All businesses need to continuously improve and keep up with the dynamic aspects of the operations; US is no different. I’m sure there are many thousands of initiatives that can and should be done to make US a better airline for its employees, customers and shareholders. Denying that improvements should be made was never my point.

However, if you go back and review the financial and operational targets that were presented when the HP/US merger was announced, you would find that the new US Airways hit almost all of those targets in 2006 and 2007. Doug sold the ideas of synergy savings and strengthened route networks to the investors who funded the merger and pulled legacy US out of the liquidation scenario it was ready to fall into. Those targets were achieved and US stock price was a rising star until the rebuffed DL hostile take-over was finally abandoned. Investors believed Doug again (presumably because he was right on with the HP/US merger) and US stock prices soared even higher. The DL bond market also responded positively to the possibility of another successful merger architected by Doug. When the DL pilots scared off the unsecured creditors, everything on that front changed for the worse.

Everyone can dog pile on Doug (Scott would be the better choice though) on the 2007 operational performance – or lack thereof (res migration and out-of-control operations). The turnaround since Robert Isom was brought in late 2007 has been remarkable on any objective measure in 2008 and 2009. And while the fuel prices and economic downturn put US on the critical list in 2008, the 2009 financial performance was exceptionally good given the industry-wide downturn that affected every airline worldwide, including WN.

IMO your post is substantially detached from reality as Doug and the management team are meeting the expectations that the BOD and the shareholders have of them. While I stand by my statement, it really doesn't matter what another CEO might do until the BOD stops trusting Doug - which is not very likely at this point.

 

[Pacemaker]

An airline is like a supertanker. Once you're up and running there's pretty much only one direction you're going to go - straight ahead. It is what it is. Look at UA, AA, Co, DL, NW. Pretty much doing the same things, the same hubs, the same routes, as 20 years ago. A tweak here, closed a hub there, but basically what you see is what you get. You don't get to start over with a clean sheet of paper in this industry. US Airways is at heart what it was two decades ago - a short-haul northeastern mostly domestic U.S. airline. What were they supposed to do along the way - shut the doors one friday night and open up for business mon. morning in Peoria?

 

[hp_fa]

I’ll say it again that WN is the world’s most successful airline. Of course most of their profits since 1992 (about 85% by some analysts account) have come from fuel hedging gains rather than operating income. That is exceptional management of fuel costs, but it also diminishes any statement that can be made about how they successfully manage operating profits. They gambled big on the non-operating side of the business and the payoff yielded a massive competitive advantage as WN could establish fares that were divorced from the open market prices on their largest or second largest expenditure. The majors, who all run substantially larger operations and consume substantially more fuel, never had the financial means to keep up with WN, especially as the competitive gap grew with more years of successful hedging. WN’s decision turned out to be sheer brilliance, but it hardly represents a failure of the majors when they never had the financial means to match WN in the fuel speculation arena.

WN was always an upstart and marched to their own tune. Other "legacy" airlines could have done the same had they opted to do so, but they made decisions to spend and operate their airlines in a different manner. WN used their advantage that they obtained by the fuel hedges to operate as they saw fit. I also recall reading and hearing many articles and commentators observe that WN really doesn't have the lowest prices, they just have worked hard to have that perception in the marketplace.

They run a completely different model than most other airlines. No first class, one aircraft manufacturer using one type of aircraft (I can just imagine their loyalty discounts), limited markets and high frequencies, different work efficiencies and employee compensation, better employee morale, etc.

As I said, others could have followed the model. Of course they would have needed to have fewer bean counters and more folks concerned about ho0w they treat employees (who would then take good care of customers).

Just my $0.02 worth.

 

[EastUS]

My point is twofold – 1) that WN is not as perfect as so many make them out to be, and 2) that US leadership has been far more successful than most employees are willing to give them credit for.

I’ll say it again that WN is the world’s most successful airline.

On the second part of my point, US management has been successful in many areas despite what many posters here seem to believe. All businesses need to continuously improve and keep up with the dynamic aspects of the operations; US is no different. I’m sure there are many thousands of initiatives that can and should be done to make US a better airline for its employees, customers and shareholders. Denying that improvements should be made was never my point.

However, if you go back and review the financial and operational targets that were presented when the HP/US merger was announced, you would find that the new US Airways hit almost all of those targets in 2006 and 2007.

When the DL pilots scared off the unsecured creditors, everything on that front changed for the worse.

Everyone can dog pile on Doug (Scott would be the better choice though) on the 2007 operational performance – or lack thereof (res migration and out-of-control operations). The turnaround since Robert Isom was brought in late 2007 has been remarkable on any objective measure in 2008 and 2009. And while the fuel prices and economic downturn put US on the critical list in 2008, the 2009 financial performance was exceptionally good given the industry-wide downturn that affected every airline worldwide, including WN.

IMO your post is substantially detached from reality as Doug and the management team are meeting the expectations that the BOD and the shareholders have of them. While I stand by my statement, it really doesn't matter what another CEO might do until the BOD stops trusting Doug - which is not very likely at this point.

"IMO your post is substantially detached from reality..." Sigh...OK then:

WN isn't as perfect"/etc..but yet, they're "the world's most successful airline." I'm not really sure how to respond to any that would place those two thoughts together, or even as sandwich bread slices wrapping a weakly attempted defense of the US management= "that US leadership has been far more successful than most employees are willing to give them credit for."

"Everyone can dog pile on Doug (Scott would be the better choice though) on the 2007 operational performance – or lack thereof (res migration and out-of-control operations)." Not true sir! Res "migration", otherwise know in english as "complete system meltdown" was touted as going along "with military precision"!!! Didn't you get the memo? The fact that even any average undergrad in computer sciences would have been flunked for not so much as even beta testing the kiosks/etc...well...no matter. We'll just, with some very great kindness, agree that it "could have gone a little bit better". I'm sure the "great savings" that was realized from indadequte to near zero training on the system, the countless additional key strokes to do,..well....pretty much anything at all, and the fact that no agent was then even able to accomodate connections to those "exotic" destinations throughout europe....since they didn't even exist in the "new and improved" database...countless thousands of additional work hours being needed to accomodate pax needs....some agents literally being reduced to tears in the process...pax lines nearly out of the frikkin' airports/etc,/...well...What can be said of that decision?..."Good Job" isn't an accolade that seems much appropriate though.

"...and the management team are meeting the expectations that the BOD and the shareholders have of them.." In other words = They haven't actually been fired....

"However, if you go back and review the financial and operational targets that were presented when the HP/US merger was announced, you would find that the new US Airways hit almost all of those targets in 2006 and 2007." Which targets were missed, and why? Is "almost all of those targets" truly an acceptable level of performance? "Sorry you got shot down and killed LT Zipp....Honest...we hit "almost all" of those radar and sam sites though!"

Any explanations for the incredible squandering of hundreds of millions of dollars in "securities" that would have made junk bonds blush?.

Here's a radical thought regarding the failed run at Delta = It wasn't the fault/doings of the Delta pilot group. That subset of just one side of the issue's labor groups didn't have that kind of "power". Whenever a transaction of that magnitude stalls and crashes....one needs must examine the inability of the deal makers to close on it. In the same way that Wolf/Gang proved incompetent with their efforts with UAL earlier.

Here's a simple question for you = What's the "direction" and "plan" for US? If one ever has to ask or wodner at all...no "leadership" is present, or at least evident.

"... the management team are meeting the expectations that the BOD and the shareholders have of them." One must then perhaps assume that the BOD are satisfied by them possessing a pulse...?

 

[Pi brat]

Nobody out east believes you about anything. Including who you say you are not. Period.

Count me as an eastie that does. If you had ever flown with the guy you think PS is, you would know that he would never claim to not be himself. He also has a completely different writing style. I've always thought PS was a guy that was one of my favorite captains, even if I don't always agree with him.

 

[EastUS]

And that friends is EXACTLY what is going on! Right on East...

I appreciate that sir. I sure wish things were otherwise. I certainly found zero joy in making the sad observations. One sometimes has to wonder if there's really any "intelligent life" on the board of directors...or whether they're just too rich to care or even be interested at all......