US Pilots Labor Discussion 1/26- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[boeingplt]

Bringing up the fact that America West has never killed one of their passengers whereas the east has had a number of fatalities is pointless. It's well know in the industry and doesn't have to be used as a trump card on these boards.

I suggest this topic NEVER be brought up again.

So you claim to be above referencing our respective safety records by stating that AWA hasn't killed anyone but AAA is well known for killing numerous. I would respect it more if you just came out and said it. Very slimy IMHO

 

[boeingplt]

You point to Bill Pollock, your own MEC. Those were LOCAL leaders elected by AAA pilots. What did national ALPA have to do with your local problems?

You're wrong - SHOCKING!

ALPA national has an established record of rewarding the loyalty of airlines respective MEC members.

Unlike USAPA, ALPA pilots do not elect their officers, it is the MEC that does and if you don't think that ALPA national has any role then you completely missed it when they held off a CLT recall attempt concurrent with placing PHL in trusteeship only days before the MEC reelected the officers - no chance that that maneuver had anything to do with the outcome....Nah. Ironically it also pushed the fence sitters over the edge in the decert... Freakin beautiful : o )

 

[cleardirect]

You're wrong - SHOCKING!

ALPA national has an established record of rewarding the loyalty of airlines respective MEC members.

Unlike USAPA, ALPA pilots do not elect their officers, it is the MEC that does and if you don't think that ALPA national has any role then you completely missed it when they held off a CLT recall attempt concurrent with placing PHL in trusteeship only days before the MEC reelected the officers - no chance that that maneuver had anything to do with the outcome....Nah. Ironically it also pushed the fence sitters over the edge in the decert... Freakin beautiful : o )

I believe that it is the LEC not the MEC that elects the MEC officers. The LEC reps are elected directly by the pilots.

Remind me who is wrong?

I guess that you are saying that USAPA is a more democratic organization because the national officers are directly elected. Comparing USAPA to the US government.

I don’t remember voting for Harry Ried or Nancy Polosi for speaker of Senate leader. Do you consider the US government a less than democratic organization?

No matter how much you all scream that it was not your fault, that it was nationals fault, that it was not about the Nicolau. You did it to yourselves, you have no one to blame but yourselves.

Yes national failed in some things but the east pilots failed and are failing much more than the organization.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Bringing up the fact that America West has never killed one of their passengers whereas the east has had a number of fatalities is pointless. It's well know in the industry and doesn't have to be used as a trump card on these boards.

I suggest this topic NEVER be brought up again.

You mean like you just did? Recite the record then say never bring it up again?

 

[nycbusdriver]

You point to Bill Pollock, your own MEC. Those were LOCAL leaders elected by AAA pilots. What did national ALPA have to do with your local problems?

How about you remove the local problem instead of the national organization.

Because it was the national organization's C&BLs that allowed a small cadre to control everything and rendered the rank-and-file pilot nearly powerless to change things.

Even the AWA pilots saw that when they, too, tried to dump ALPA in times past. ALPA is a strictly self-serving leech on the body of professional airline pilots. Once it latches on, it is loathe to let go, and has set itself up to maintain itself by placing all power in the few, elite good ol' boys.

 

[boeingplt]

I believe that it is the LEC not the MEC that elects the MEC officers. The LEC reps are elected directly by the pilots.

Remind me who is wrong?

Wow you really do substitute your own reality. The MEC is the body of LECs.

 

[cleardirect]

Wow you really do substitute your own reality. The MEC is the body of LECs.

How does the MEC become the body of the LEC? The LEC elects them. Are MEC members LEC members?

Not what you said.

Unlike USAPA, ALPA pilots do not elect their officers, it is the MEC that does

 

[boeingplt]

How does the MEC become the body of the LEC? The LEC elects them. Are MEC members LEC members?

Not what you said.

It is what I said. The MEC elects the officers. Under ALPA the membership elects the LEC members, yes, but but they have zero say in how those reps vote for officers.

You seem to be making the argument that the membership endorses everything that their elected reps do as a body since they voted for them.

How do you feel about membership ratification then? What distinction would make it necessary vs not necessary?

ALPA - MEC votes for officers
USAPA - Membership votes for officers
That is your reality whether you or not you choose to shove your head in the sand won't change the facts

 

[Metroyet]

C&BLs that allowed a small cadre to control everything and rendered the rank-and-file pilot nearly powerless to change things.

You mean like trying to sneak a resolution through eliminating an executive position to better consolidate power among a hardliner "small cadre"?

Does that sound familiar?

 

[boeingplt]

You mean like trying to sneak a resolution through eliminating an executive position to better consolidate power among a hardliner "small cadre"?

Does that sound familiar?

How is putting the question to the BPR, having it pass with only LAS and PHX voting no, then sending it out to the membership for ratification considered "sneaking it through"?

 

[jetjok1]

You all may be surprised but I and many west pilots would be very happy to be unburdened by the weight of the east. To be relieved of the attitude and entitlement of the east pilots. Despite your rose colored vision of how great Us Air was and that everyone must want to be part of your little club nothing could be farther from the truth. The west did not want to get involved with your mess but we are. Yes. If Doug decided to spin off the east to anyone else and let you become someone else’s problem I would be very happy.

But that is not reality and I have to live in the real world. We are in this together. That means that we are going to have to finish this merger and move forward. Any amount of hoping or wishing for something else is not going to make it so.

Would you still be so eager for separate ops if you had gotten DOH? Say Doug does spin you off, do you believe that the east can survive on it’s own? That means another merger, think that you are going to get a better deal in the next one? What happens if you get the same or worse? Try, try again? The entire industry know s who and what you guys are, if there were another merger they would be ready and not allow you to play these games again. The next merger would be with a larger carrier where the east would be the minority, good luck with that.

It is time to stop wishing and start living with reality, this is what we have and things are going to start changing very soon.

Clear,

I'm in agreement with some of your thoughts. Being an East pilot, a former AWA pilot, and still living in the West, I wanted nothing to do with your airline when the merger was announced. That's the part I agree with. What I don't agree with is what you perceive as my "attitude and entitlement" mindset is. You have no clue! As does the "entire industry" (mighty encompassing)! I do agree with the fact we are going to have to finish this merger and move forward. And we will ALL need some luck with that!

 

[Black Swan]

You point to Bill Pollock, your own MEC. Those were LOCAL leaders elected by AAA pilots. What did national ALPA have to do with your local problems?

How about you remove the local problem instead of the national organization.

Is that what is going to happen when the world comes crashing down on the east very soon. Blame USAPA and try to start yet another union instead of removing the leadership problem?

No I have a very good understanding of what happened.

It is USAPA and the east pilots that are going to be the next smoking hole.

No, you think you have a good understanding. I am going to bust the myth this time.... Our LEC's to a large degree were so in bed with the company that it was disgusting. You weren't there, you don't know. Our PHL F/O rep had a retirement party THROWN BY THE COMPANY in the Envoy Lounge! Announced in a CBS message. Unprecedented.Every other retiree gets thrown out with no recognition. None. Then comes LOA 93. The most far reaching concessionary document ever negotiated. I firmly believe it was negotiated by certain LEC members and Pollock far in advance of when it was supposedly "hashed" together. There is just too much in it, too finely negotiated to be a Ninth Hour workup. Then ALPA gets their meathooks into the DC management fee. They never tried to put the brakes on the runaway givebacks, all they wanted was the entity to survive. The tenant to remain in the building, at all cost. At all cost to continue to extract the cashflow. We heard from our MEC and negotiators constantly about how we had to get to SWA pay, then it was Airtran, then it was RJ's for feed. Now the feed is the lead. It went on and on. Every time we gave them a break, it was a mistake. It was like giving a kid crack. They made more and more stupid moves, and we paid. It never made a difference. You give them Metrojet, the rest of the employees make the same money, and it folds. Business Select, RJ's etc. All backed by the LEC's and MEC. No firm protective language. Just more givaways. And these guys managed to convince and cajole pilots to continue backing them. Finally, the pension GONE in the night, without a vote. The company STILL can't ever turn around. After two near death experiences, no revelation like Continental that you cannot continue to push employees this hard and take this much, and keep trying. They poked the leopard with a stick too many times, and one day they wandered too close, and we bit the head off the ALPA stick pokers. And the company. And you think it is all about the NIC. Well, don't try and tell us what you think you know. We got poked too many times, and we took ALPA out like a mob hit, because at that point, they even let Pollock put out his Dear Dave letter that hits military guys with a disability offset. Now we see what he and others were doing behind our backs, and it just makes it all the clearer what we had to do. And I am so glad we did it. So don't even begin to try us why we did it. We all know. That is why we are going to go for you next when you try and take years away from our guys, when you were in grade school. We are never going to agree on this, so don't try. We are not going to let a guy who got furloughed who put in 18 yrs. behind a new hire. Say what you want about the crappy company we worked for, and we will agree, it sucked. But we tried to work with them, and gave and gave. Now they are expected to lay down and take this abortion called the Nic. A real abortion for them. We would rather lock you up in a nasty little gunbattle to the end than give up, and you are going to get one.

 

[luvn737s]

Even the AWA pilots saw that when they, too, tried to dump ALPA in times past. ALPA is a strictly self-serving leech on the body of professional airline pilots. Once it latches on, it is loathe to let go, and has set itself up to maintain itself by placing all power in the few, elite good ol' boys.

You're not quite accurate there. The reason that the AWA pilots wanted to dump ALPA was that they wanted a more aggressive negotiating stance than ALPA was willing to provide. The much ballyhooed "ALPA Toolbox" seemed to be locked and no one was willing to get a key cut for the AWA pilots. Airlines who controlled ALPA (including USAirways) were unwilling to use "their" money to fight for a measly 1000 pilots or so.

Under USAPA, the same self-serving mentality exists to the point that they seem unwilling to acknowledge that the new airline is not merely an extension of the old airline, but an entirely new entity of which they are but a part. They look out for the east's interests exclusively, until a judge reminded them of their obligation.

Once USAPA's leadership embraces the reality of the new entity and who they really represent, then there is a chance that progress can be made for all the pilots. Status-quo, although comfortable, is not progress. And it's not worth 2% of anyone's pay.

 

[Black Swan]

You mean like trying to sneak a resolution through eliminating an executive position to better consolidate power among a hardliner "small cadre"?

Does that sound familiar?

Forget trying to reason with these guys,they have probably been on the property 5 yrs. and always wanted to be an ALPA pilot. Well, we did too. After about 30yrs af constant degradation in lifestyle, not entirely the fault of ALPA- but a lot of unprotected givaways later, it was time to go. These guys were not around long enough to figure it out. It was a constant, backward slide after the first 5 yrs, and it had to stop.

 

[Black Swan]

You're not quite accurate there. The reason that the AWA pilots wanted to dump ALPA was that they wanted a more aggressive negotiating stance than ALPA was willing to provide. The much ballyhooed "ALPA Toolbox" seemed to be locked and no one was willing to get a key cut for the AWA pilots. Airlines who controlled ALPA (including USAirways) were unwilling to use "their" money to fight for a measly 1000 pilots or so.

Under USAPA, the same self-serving mentality exists to the point that they seem unwilling to acknowledge that the new airline is not merely an extension of the old airline, but an entirely new entity of which they are but a part. They look out for the east's interests exclusively, until a judge reminded them of their obligation.

Once USAPA's leadership embraces the reality of the new entity and who they really represent, then there is a chance that progress can be made for all the pilots. Status-quo, although comfortable, is not progress. And it's not worth 2% of anyone's pay.

It still says USAirways on the jets, and it is OUR certificate, so I think you are the one who works for a different airline................