US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/2- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Phoenix]

I beleive most are making this out to be more than it is.....

Its as simple as the 9th court meant it to be, Dismissall.......

That frees USAPA to conclude a contract with a seniority list they submit included....if the contract is voted in its done, if the list doesnt harm anyone from where they are RIGHT NOW, SAME AS THEY WERE BEFORE.......then end of story .

What part of this decision do you not understand......simple........nic no. Legal bargaining agent yes......

PS If someone gets to keep what they had, how can they say they were wronged? end of lawsuits.....

End of law suits? Are you kidding?

Just look at all the law suits that were precipitated by the DOH in all the other unions on the property... I mean, oh the humanity, there were scads and scads of them... I'm sure it would be easy to find just one example.. I mean we should look to them to know the pure agony that awaits us.. alas.. oh, if I just had the assistance of a legal expert or researcher.. to find just one example.

I know, I know, examples are hard to find.. I'll settle for a frivolous one... anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

 

[dariencc]

End of law suits? Are you kidding?

Just look at all the law suits that were precipitated by the DOH in all the other unions on the property... I mean, oh the humanity, there were scads and scads of them... I'm sure it would be easy to find just one example.. I mean we should look to them to know the pure agony that awaits us.. alas.. oh, if I just had the assistance of a legal expert or researcher.. to find just one example.

I know, I know, examples are hard to find.. I'll settle for a frivolous one... anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

Legal expert or researcher? No need, just ask Jim. He should be able to tell you whether there is "case law" out there. 🙄

 

[BoeingBoy]

I don't know which west guys' daddy golfed with this guy,

Conspiricy theories still alive and kicking, I see.

but that trial was a travesty and a miscarriage of justice. If you can't see that, you have lost all credibility.

Perhaps you'd like to have something other than your own "jawboning" to back that up. I believe the 9th said the trial was premature, but nothing about "a travesty" or "miscarriage of justice". What they did say was that USAPA will have a ripe DFR suit on their hands if it doesn't represent the West pilots equally - so instead of an arbitrator telling you you're not goint to get DOH itcould be a judge next time...

Jim

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Conspiricy theories still alive and kicking, I see.



Perhaps you'd like to have something other than your own "jawboning" to back that up. I believe the 9th said the trial was premature, but nothing about "a travesty" or "miscarriage of justice". What they did say was that USAPA will have a ripe DFR suit on their hands if it doesn't represent the West pilots equally - so instead of an arbitrator telling you you're not goint to get DOH itcould be a judge next time...

Jim

Ripe doesn't mean "done deal". The fact that the Circuit judges found that the District Judge erred in his most simple ruling says a lot. The Judge himself was not on trial here, even though there are those here that think he should be.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Ripe doesn't mean "done deal". The fact that the Circuit judges found that the District Judge erred in his most simple ruling says a lot. The Judge himself was not on trial here, even though there are those here that think he should be.

Neither does it mean "no chance". The key word being "think". Having that opinion doesn't make it fact, although you and others present it as fact...

Jim

 

[Black Swan]

Neither does it mean "no chance". The key word being "think". Having that opinion doesn't make it fact, although you and others present it as fact...

Jim

This ruling by the 9th is much bigger than you realize. Perhaps the best part was where the 9th opened an interesting discussion about the Nic. They made it perfectly clear the Nic is not a necessary inclusion in a seniority application. Try and play it down. We know otherwise. This was a gift. They basically told USAPA the Nic was theirs to deal with. As long as we do a fair integration, there is no no harm. When was a DOH integration of pilots in the past at USAir considered harmful?Cite one lawsuit. Allegheny Mohawk is referred to in the Academy of Arbitrators books as the gold standard. I have never seen Allegheny -Mohawk ie DOH referred to as a harmful way to integrate two seniority lists.

 

[pitchlow]

Who knows what will come out of Section 22. Not sure how your disadvantaged from your unions constitution and bylaws, if there are sufficient restrictions put in place to protect your spot in Phx on the A320 or your handful of 757's.

Anything beyond that, is pure speculation as to who would fly or get what seat etc, which I'm sure the courts would not want to go into the crystal ball business, as obviously these 2 judges refused to do.

To your point. It seems pretty obvious that The 9th recognizes the flaw on ruling in the present when future events have yet to unfold. I guess that comes under the heading - Logic. I digress but It still amazes me that ALPA merger policy does not define career expectations. It basically allows counsels to construct arguments they find in the boundless universe of the crystal ball to make their case. Sadly with a willing Judge the stardust sticks sometimes. As I have said many times, ALPA merger policy is firstly designed to protect ALPA while simultaneously hoping things don't go to badly. LOL..

 

[Freebird]

Ripe doesn't mean "done deal". The fact that the Circuit judges found that the District Judge erred in his most simple ruling says a lot. The Judge himself was not on trial here, even though there are those here that think he should be.

Contrary to what your intellectually challenged pilots think, AOL is alive and well. The website being down has nothing to do with the 9th ruling. Contrary to the East, the West pilots aren't up in arms seeking 'mental stress counseling' as happened back East when the Binding Arbitration was delivered via the Nic Award. Its another stage in the controversy. USAPA won nothing. Square 1 ladies.

What did happen, is that the 9th made it very clear what both the Company and Usapa can do, without harming the West pilots. Otherwise, a DFR will occur and you will find another lawsuit. Money isn't a problem out West. Where does that leave Usapa? Despite what your keyboard cavaliers post, your options are very limited. Don't "cash your lottery ticket".

The 'box' Usapa finds itself in is very limiting. Cleary wont tell you that. He's riding high on misinformation. The ride is short.

Tread carefully, my friend...

 

[Black Swan]

Allegheny-Mohawk, Allegheny -Lake Central USAir-PSA, USAir-Piedmont. All DOH and considered completely fair. Fences and restrictions smooth out the rough spots. Any time Nicolau entered the picture, there were problems. We can easily go DOH with fences and pass the fairness test. It is our history. Anyone in their right mind saw the Nicolau was rife with problems. So unfair it caused the worst problems in airline merger history. An aberration. Not to be repeated. Unfair.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Contrary to what your intellectually challenged pilots think, AOL is alive and well. The website being down has nothing to do with the 9th ruling. Contrary to the East, the West pilots aren't up in arms seeking 'mental stress counseling' as happened back East when the Binding Arbitration was delivered via the Nic Award. Its another stage in the controversy. USAPA won nothing. Square 1 ladies.

What did happen, is that the 9th made it very clear what both the Company and Usapa can do, without harming the West pilots. Otherwise, a DFR will occur and you will find another lawsuit. Money isn't a problem out West. Where does that leave Usapa? Despite what your keyboard cavaliers post, your options are very limited. Don't "cash your lottery ticket".

The 'box' Usapa finds itself in is very limiting. Cleary wont tell you that. He's riding high on misinformation. The ride is short.

Tread carefully, my friend...

Funniest and probably the most misinformed thing I've read here in the last 2 days.

Sorta like admitting that you had a winning lottery ticket in tha pocket of the pants you sent to the cleaners.

 

[Black Swan]

Contrary to what your intellectually challenged pilots think, AOL is alive and well. The website being down has nothing to do with the 9th ruling. Contrary to the East, the West pilots aren't up in arms seeking 'mental stress counseling' as happened back East when the Binding Arbitration was delivered via the Nic Award. Its another stage in the controversy. USAPA won nothing. Square 1 ladies.

What did happen, is that the 9th made it very clear what both the Company and Usapa can do, without harming the West pilots. Otherwise, a DFR will occur and you will find another lawsuit. Money isn't a problem out West. Where does that leave Usapa? Despite what your keyboard cavaliers post, your options are very limited. Don't "cash your lottery ticket".

The 'box' Usapa finds itself in is very limiting. Cleary wont tell you that. He's riding high on misinformation. The ride is short.

Tread carefully, my friend...

Don't forget, the Nic is absolutely contrary to USAPA constitution. For it to be used would cause harm to the East pilots, and a DFR. This is a two way street. As far as USAPA not winning anything? I say thank you to the Addington plaintiffs. They flushed the entire issue out of the 9th. The Nic is not required. Thank you, again.

 

[Phoenix]

....
Tread carefully, my friend...

Yeah, the egg shells are everywhere in the law library. We are scouring all the shelves for a sure fire means of integration where the interests of all pilots are served. Who knows, maybe there is a gold standard. If you find it, let your union know so we can get on with the vote.

 

[Freighterguynow]

Contrary to what your intellectually challenged pilots think, AOL is alive and well. The website being down has nothing to do with the 9th ruling.

Any estimate when it'll be back or when we'll hear from AOL?

 

[Black Swan]

Contrary to what your intellectually challenged pilots think, AOL is alive and well. The website being down has nothing to do with the 9th ruling. Contrary to the East, the West pilots aren't up in arms seeking 'mental stress counseling' as happened back East when the Binding Arbitration was delivered via the Nic Award. Its another stage in the controversy. USAPA won nothing. Square 1 ladies.

What did happen, is that the 9th made it very clear what both the Company and Usapa can do, without harming the West pilots. Otherwise, a DFR will occur and you will find another lawsuit. Money isn't a problem out West. Where does that leave Usapa? Despite what your keyboard cavaliers post, your options are very limited. Don't "cash your lottery ticket".

The 'box' Usapa finds itself in is very limiting. Cleary wont tell you that. He's riding high on misinformation. The ride is short.

Tread carefully, my friend...

Money isn't a problem out west? Did those Uranium level badge backers pull in that much $$$$ I have yet to see one.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Where are all the west cheerleaders now that the 9th tanked Addington? Thirdseathero, 767jetzz, Metroyet B717, and oh yes, the infamous 700UW. All got it wrong. What a mistake betting on the Desert Judge.

I'm still here.

Just waiting for the self serving ruckus to die down, as I suspect the others you mentioned are.

I asked a question early on in this thread which others have repeated whole or in part that continuously seems to be deliberately ignored or answered with offhanded/dismissive insults rather than fact and/or lucid dialogue. However, in the spirit of said dialogue I'll ask again.

What leverage does the Union have to bring against the Company if it refuses to abandon the already accepted NIC list?

Additionally, ALPA and the Company signed the Transition Agreement therefore USAPA is bound to honor it. Now while the seniority integration needs a ratified agreement to be implemented, the list to be used has already been crafted and submitted and accepted via the TA.

If at USAPAs next negotiation session the Company refuses to accept a new list, and simply cites they are bound by the TA having already accepted a list, what then?

I submit that "IF" a merger with AA becomes a reality that could provide impetus, minus that I don't see how you can force the issue. The Company knows the value of the position it holds to be sure, do any of you really believe they will simply accept any new list passed them, shrug and move on to the next section of your CBA to be negotiated? I suspect they will make the Union pay dearly for it, that's if they are willing to move off the NIC list at all.

As far as a work action goes, I'll agree with what others have posted. First, with the number of other airlines in mediation you're along way off from release any time soon. Secondly, I doubt the NMB would release the Union if the seniority issue was the deciding factor, and finally at the point of release you'd have absolutely no unity to stand by. If the Company was holding the line with the NIC, I see a considerable number of pilots that would not strike to try and move them off that position.

I think this thing is long from over.

JMHO