US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/2- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[luvthe9]

This ruling by the 9th is much bigger than you realize. Perhaps the best part was where the 9th opened an interesting discussion about the Nic. They made it perfectly clear the Nic is not a necessary inclusion in a seniority application. Try and play it down. We know otherwise. This was a gift. They basically told USAPA the Nic was theirs to deal with. As long as we do a fair integration, there is no no harm. When was a DOH integration of pilots in the past at USAir considered harmful?Cite one lawsuit. Allegheny Mohawk is referred to in the Academy of Arbitrators books as the gold standard. I have never seen Allegheny -Mohawk ie DOH referred to as a harmful way to integrate two seniority lists.

DOH is completely fair as a merger policy. We take nothing from the west and fence the east out. Passed the smell test on this property for every other group. Make it unanimous. Easy argument. If every other employee group did it this way in this deal, how can anyone say it is not fair? They can't.

 

[Barrister]

I'm still here.

Just waiting for the self serving ruckus to die down, as I suspect the others you mentioned are.

I asked a question early on in this thread which others have repeated whole or in part that continuously seems to be deliberately ignored or answered with offhanded/dismissive insults rather than fact and/or lucid dialogue. However, in the spirit of said dialogue I'll ask again.

What leverage does the Union have to bring against the Company if it refuses to abandon the already accepted NIC list?

Additionally, ALPA and the Company signed the Transition Agreement therefore USAPA is bound to honor it. Now while the seniority integration needs a ratified agreement to be implemented, the list to be used has already been crafted and submitted and accepted via the TA.

If at USAPAs next negotiation session the Company refuses to accept a new list, and simply cites they are bound by the TA having already accepted a list, what then?

I submit that "IF" a merger with AA becomes a reality that could provide impetus, minus that I don't see how you can force the issue. The Company knows the value of the position it holds to be sure, do any of you really believe they will simply accept any new list passed them, shrug and move on to the next section of your CBA to be negotiated? I suspect they will make the Union pay dearly for it, that's if they are willing to move off the NIC list at all.

As far as a work action goes, I'll agree with what others have posted. First, with the number of other airlines in mediation you're along way off from release any time soon. Secondly, I doubt the NMB would release the Union if the seniority issue was the deciding factor, and finally at the point of release you'd have absolutely no unity to stand by. If the Company was holding the line with the NIC, I see a considerable number of pilots that would not strike to try and move them off that position.

I think this thing is long from over.

JMHO


You are partially correct, Parker doesn't have to do a darn thing.....what he CANNOT do is cite PENDING litigation as a
bar to negotiations. Think outside of your narrow NIC oriented box.

NPJB

 

[pitchlow]

This ruling by the 9th is much bigger than you realize. Perhaps the best part was where the 9th opened an interesting discussion about the Nic. They made it perfectly clear the Nic is not a necessary inclusion in a seniority application. Try and play it down. We know otherwise. This was a gift. They basically told USAPA the Nic was theirs to deal with. As long as we do a fair integration, there is no no harm. When was a DOH integration of pilots in the past at USAir considered harmful?Cite one lawsuit. Allegheny Mohawk is referred to in the Academy of Arbitrators books as the gold standard. I have never seen Allegheny -Mohawk referred to as a harmful way to integrate two seniority lists.

Hey Black Swan, it harmed me.. I was supposed to be a B737 Captain in 1988. I didn't get there till 97. It was right there in the practice bid, Big as Life. Then on to Pittsburgh to oust some old B727 Allegheny retread. Hey, I had career expectations. Then that unscrupulous Sam Kagel stole my future....honest. 😉

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

You are partially correct, Parker doesn't have to do a darn thing.....what he CANNOT do is cite PENDING litigation as a
bar to negotiations. Think outside of your narrow NIC oriented box.

NPJB

Try reading my post again.

I never said Parker would cite PENDING litigation, he is obligated to adhere to a TA signed with ALPA that USAPA must honor, part of that TA governs seniority integration and has been partially accomplished with the Companys acceptance of the submitted NIC list.

Parker need only cite he is following the Transition Agreement

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Try reading my post again.

I never said Parker would cite PENDING litigation, he is obligated to adhere to a TA signed with ALPA that USAPA must honor, part of that TA governs seniority integration and has been partially accomplished with the Companys acceptance of the submitted NIC list.

Parker need only cite he is following the Transition Agreement

Keep grabbing those straws if it makes you happy. Just because ALPA passed a list doesn't give the company permission to use it for anything, except maybe toilet paper in the executive washroom.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Keep grabbing those straws if it makes you happy. Just because ALPA passed a list doesn't give the company permission to use it for anything, except maybe toilet paper in the executive washroom.

So you're saying the Company can just ignore the TA?

What were you saying about straws?

 

[Ames]

Keep grabbing those straws if it makes you happy. Just because ALPA passed a list doesn't give the company permission to use it for anything, except maybe toilet paper in the executive washroom.

So, under your thinking, the same can be said for our contracts. As bad as LOA93 is perhaps you should anticipate a Mesa contract? Or Colgan? Not out of the realm of possibility - under your myopic thought process.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Money isn't a problem out west? Did those Uranium level badge backers pull in that much $$$$ I have yet to see one.

No. Contrary to what you and Bradford have been hoping for, the West legal team is back in action. You got a victory on Friday, but it's quite fragile for several reasons. One, all the court did is reset the clock back to the summer of '08. Two, even the majority tells USAPA in the footnotes to be careful as the opinion in no way endorses USAPA's aims. Third, despite malicious cyber attacks (RICO anyone?), the West legal front is very much alive. Friday's ruling was quite puzzling given the fact that they had a month before denied USAPA's motion to stay the injunction. Plus, the majority opinion is noteworthy for all the issues it punts down the field. They basically throw up their hands and default to a bright line rule without much justification other than they choose not to deviate from the general rule. It's almost as though they're not committing themselves to anything and are asking for their fellow judges to take up the issues en banc. The dissent on the other hand leaves a lot for us to grab onto. Sound, legal logic displayed by Judge Bybee. Worst case scenario is that we do it all again in a few months. The money and commitment is there from the West. We kicked your a$$ once on the merits and we'll do it again. Meanwhile, you get paid next week, next month and many months afterwards at industry -40%. I personally have more than two decades to amortize these loses. How long do you have?

 

[oldiebutgoody]

So you're saying the Company can just ignore the TA?

What were you saying about straws?

The list is not part of the TA. It's part of a NEW CONTRACT. After we ratify one of those, the TAs go away.

Do you REALLY think that Parker and gang prefer the West pilots over the East? Maybe he's just afraid someone will mail him an envelope of poop or jam his phone lines.

Keep dreaming if it helps you sleep at night.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

So, under your thinking, the same can be said for our contracts. As bad as LOA93 is perhaps you should anticipate a Mesa contract? Or Colgan? Not out of the realm of possibility - under your myopic thought process.

I'd respond to this, but it doesn't even make sense. Are you asking a question, making a statement, or drooling on your keyboard?

Funny to hear AWA guys talk about substandard contracts. If anybody knows about that subject, they do.

 

[Ames]

DOH is completely fair as a merger policy. We take nothing from the west and fence the east out. Passed the smell test on this property for every other group. Make it unanimous. Easy argument. If every other employee group did it this way in this deal, how can anyone say it is not fair? They can't.

The pilots willingly followed their union's process. It was concluded. The result is not yet implemented due to some childish reactions to the result. Former captains are now first officers. Formerly employed first officers are now unemployed. Former unemployed pilots are now employed while others are upgrading - all out of seniority which was the result of the initial process.

That is unfair.

I said it.

It is.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

The list is not part of the TA. It's part of a NEW CONTRACT. After we ratify one of those, the TAs go away.

Do you REALLY think that Parker and gang prefer the West pilots over the East? Maybe he's just afraid someone will mail him an envelope of poop or jam his phone lines.

Keep dreaming if it helps you sleep at night.

Do I REALLY think that Parker and gang prefer the West pilots over the East? I don't care one way or the other, what I REALLY think is that Parker loves having you guys at reduced wages and that with a legitimate position established in the TA he is going to ride it for as long as he can, for as much value as he can get.

If adhering to the TA and NIC drags this thing out, I see Parker doing just that. Unless USAPA offers something concession wise to move him off the NIC, or someone dangles a merger in front of him, this thing is far from over.

With that said, if repeating "NIC is dead" ad nauseam helps you sleep better, by all means have at it. I wouldn't want you flying tired.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

The pilots willingly followed their union's process. It was concluded. The result is not yet implemented due to some childish reactions to the result. Former captains are now first officers. Formerly employed first officers are now unemployed. Former unemployed pilots are now employed while others are upgrading - all out of seniority which was the result of the initial process.

That is unfair.

I said it.

It is.

Welcome to reality, big boy. Fairness is a very relative thing. Putting guys hired in 2005 senior to guys hired in 1988 is MORE unfair.

There, I said it.

Back at ya!

If you don't like the reality of this screwed up industry, I suggest you run from it like hell!

 

[aquagreen73s]

Do I REALLY think that Parker and gang prefer the West pilots over the East? I don't care one way or the other, what I REALLY think is that Parker loves having you guys at reduced wages and that with a legitimate position established in the TA he is going to ride it for as long as he can, for as much value as he can get.

Although it won't happen en mass. East pilots need to read the company's motion to dismiss and the plaintiff's response to the original hybrid claim. The reason thy hybrid was dismissed was pretty straight forward: the company had not acted in any way inconsistent with the Transition Agreement - the one that calls for seniority to be settled through a binding arbitration. We have that arbitration result and we know once again that USAPA has stepped into the shoes of the original contracting party - ALPA. For either one to move off the original contract creates a hybrid claim which this time will be obviously ripe. But it's a long way to even get to that point as it assumes the - en banc hearing fails and the company actually decides it's worth their while to jack up annual costs several hundred million. Don't forget once the pilots get a deal, so do the flight attendants. The threat of impending litigation is more than enough to stop the section 6 process dead in its tracks. Those my friends are the realities we face today. A final resolution would have been good in the long run, but we didn't get anything close to that on Friday.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

It IS Done. Get over it.

This doesn't meet the requirements for en banc hearing. You can refile AFTER we ratify a new FAIR contract.