US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/2- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Schultz]

You and Aqua never answered. Where is the Leonidas Website? We know it was quickly taken away. Cannot be taken other than a clear sign the army is in full retreat.

Web sites cost money, For some reason money must be tight.

 

[LSS]

What hook. He now has to make a decision that he has been avoiding.

He has to decide if he is going to live up to his word that he accepted the Nicolau. He is going to have to decide if he is going to make the east buy something less than the Nicolau. He is going to have to decide if being dragged into the next DFR suit is worth it.

What don't you guys get. The company is never going to agree to go back to line bidding. PBS is coming your way not a thing you can do about it. No PBS no contract.

Seniority is the same thing. What if Parker decides that no Nicolau no contract. What is usapa going to do?

You are back to square one from usapa promise. That they can negotiate seniority like a crew. What happens if usapa is not a very good negotiator? Jerry Glass has eaten your lunch before and he will do it again.

usapa is in a bad spot. No legal impediments to keep usapa from their promise. No ALPA national to blame the failure on. What happens if usapa can not bring a contract with anything other than Nicolau? Who do they blame then?

So after four years usapa finally brings a contract with the Nicolau, was it all worth it? The delay. the money wasted and lost?

If Parker ever wants a joint pilot contract, either he will be willing to consider a fair senority integration list based on DOH with protections for what each pilot group brought to the table through fences, restrictions and conditions or a NIC included contract which throws so much money at everyone that the NIC no longer matters (however it will forever matter in future mergers, which I hope everyone keeps in mind, as retirement plans, pay, vacation, sick. work rules, etc. can be taken away by the stroke of a BK judge's pen). The point is USAPA could put the NIC into every single contract, and until the majority of east pilots so negatively affected by this abortion, either quit or retire, there will be no ratified contract. What leverage does USAPA have? Seems to me, they have a huge hammer if Parker ever again wants to make another merger deal... We all know, Parker is not about to willingly pay the pilots of US Airways anything near industry standard... he will fight tooth and nail to keep us all at the very bottom of the barrel in every area of our contract he can.

I don't know of any east pilots that want to see anything taken away from what each group brought to the table. We don't want your equipment, routes or flying. New equipment and routes brought in after the date of the merger should be shared. But what we also don't want is to see a probationary west guy at the time of the merger, slotted in above a 17 year never furloughed east guy. The fact that the west has protested so hard, long, and loudly about those dishonorable east guys ("what is it you don't understand about binding arbitration?") to the point of filing a DFR lawsuit against the union, speaks in such clarity to those on the east that the Nicolau decision was decidedly in favor of the West pilots... Frankly, the east pilots have been through a number of mergers and never, in the history of this airline has there been this much anger and rancor over a seniority integration. Most of the time in the past, everyone is a little pissed off and no one is happy about the integration, but never anything as horrific as what we are currently experiencing. I can't speak for the actual founders of USAPA, but I can say without a doubt that most of the pilots that voted in the NMB representational election for USAPA did so because of a host of issues with ALPA, including the eager willingness to give away virtually everything the company sought in concessions including our DB retirement plan. The NIC arbitration was for many, the final straw.

Either we work together or we will all be locked in a place that no one wants to be for a very, very long time.

 

[Schultz]

Guess you too didn't hear the news. This nonscense concerning the dropping of the MDA lawsuit is comical at best and shows a complete ignorance by the author. ALPA council and Mike Haber entered into a written agreement to extend the deadline until Jun 4th. The author should have known this before he shot off his big mouth. I have seen the memorandum of Law and it is awesome. ALPA does not stand a chance. The MDA guys will prevail in a major way. They are learning of this in real time today. In fact, it is so awesome that I am going to post it so that ALL the readers can see for themselves what this lawsuit is all about rather than reading these rediculous posts from the misinformed.

Congratulations USAPA for your win in the Addington case! Now we will finish this with a huge win for the MDA pilots. I intend to post the entire document (88 pages) on the pilotsforchange yahoo group. The MDA plaintiffs will receive it from icontacts as usual. If you are a member of the yahoo group you will be able to read it by this evening. If not, maybe a friend can forward it to you or....

As a last resort, send me an email at MDAclients@comcast.net and identify yourself by airline, name, base and airplane. I will gladly send you the PDF file so that you can read the truth and put an end to these foolish posts that do nothing but lie and confuse the reader. ALPA is going to lose this lawsuit in a major way. Don't take my word for it - just read the document that was filed in federal court yesterday. Know the FACTS so you can avoid being conned by these uninformed posters.
Jim Portale

Clear, read the last paragraph. Email Jim, or have a friend do it if you want to stay anonymous.

 

[cleardirect]

Clear, this is an easy one. Read carefully. Pilots "furloughed" into MDA. Same certificate. Not like PSA or Piedmont. Still with me? OK. This has the backing of ALPA on the property and Nat'l, Then the list goes to Nicolau. He rules the Nic with them being FURLOUGHED in it. OK here it is. That is when DAMAGE occurred. Get it? They got put on the bottom. That is the damage. Accident happened, damage done. Not pending.

I have you on ignore but this one is to much fun.

Clear, this is an easy one. Read carefully. Pilots "furloughed" into MDA

Yep got it they were furloughed.

Not like PSA or Piedmont. Still with me?

Yep got it still furloughed.

This has the backing of ALPA on the property and Nat'l,

Still furloughed.

Then the list goes to Nicolau.

Yep got it still furloughed.

He rules the Nic with them being FURLOUGHED in it.

Still furlough I am with you.

That is when DAMAGE occurred. Get it?

Lost me. What damage? Have they bid using the Nicolau yet? Did someone junior on the east list bid something they wanted?

They got put on the bottom. That is the damage.

Put on the bottom of what? Where they put on the bottom under CEL guys? Were they put on the bottom of the Nicolau list? Where they reordered on the east list? Oh that’s right you said they were still furloughed.

You guys are saying the ninth killed the Nicolau list so how can they still be on the bottom of a list that does not exist anymore? If you guys get DOH they will be way senior to Dave O’Dell right so they will not be on the bottom anymore.

Now where are the damages?

 

[Schultz]

Do yourself a favor and read the document.

I have you on ignore but this one is to much fun.


Yep got it they were furloughed.



Yep got it still furloughed.



Still furloughed.


Yep got it still furloughed.



Still furlough I am with you.



Lost me. What damage? Have they bid using the Nicolau yet? Did someone junior on the east list bid something they wanted?


Put on the bottom of what? Where they put on the bottom under CEL guys? Were they put on the bottom of the Nicolau list? Where they reordered on the east list? Oh that’s right you said they were still furloughed.

You guys are saying the ninth killed the Nicolau list so how can they still be on the bottom of a list that does not exist anymore? If you guys get DOH they will be way senior to Dave O’Dell right so they will not be on the bottom anymore.

Now where are the damages?

 

[cleardirect]

Do yourself a favor and read the document.

I would love to read it.

Can't find it. Not posted in the federal court system. Not posted here. Not posted anywhere I can see.

Can't find pilotsforchange.

Help me out.

 

[Black Swan]

I have you on ignore but this one is to much fun.


Yep got it they were furloughed.



Yep got it still furloughed.



Still furloughed.


Yep got it still furloughed.



Still furlough I am with you.



Lost me. What damage? Have they bid using the Nicolau yet? Did someone junior on the east list bid something they wanted?


Put on the bottom of what? Where they put on the bottom under CEL guys? Were they put on the bottom of the Nicolau list? Where they reordered on the east list? Oh that’s right you said they were still furloughed.

You guys are saying the ninth killed the Nicolau list so how can they still be on the bottom of a list that does not exist anymore? If you guys get DOH they will be way senior to Dave O’Dell right so they will not be on the bottom anymore.

Now where are the damages?

Obviously still in denial mode......... Time for a quick question? Where is the Leonidas Website?

 

[AWE Dog]

Pilots left for better jobs? Are you serious or just ignorant? Ask the former East pilots, that were hired here after being furloughed out East with no chance of returning, why they applied. Was it because others were leaving AWA? It was growth. AAA Was on its knees. Done.

Its hard to tell which one of you is the most ignorant on this board. I see you choose to read the 9th decision and spin it your way. Its not all roses for Usapa, ladies.

Tread lightly, my friend....

The East pilots that went west did so because they no longer had a job East. Their first choice was East but but needed a job. Add Nic to the picture and now they are AW loyal. Wal Mart is growing too, but that doesn't mean I want to work there.

 

[ChuckBewFarley]

Chuck,

What do you think of permanent separate operations? You will get to keep everything you brought to the merger. AWA was a world class outfit. PHX is an absolute powerhouse hub with tremendous growth potential. Enjoy!

Hate

Sorry, can't really happen unless usapa wants it. YOU wanted single carrier status and got it.

We have little representation as usapa controls that.

Usapa promised a contract in short order and has TA'd how many sections???

Can't wait to see the list with appropriate conditions and restrictions.

Let's move on, you won, you are supremely confident and highly experienced, show us the money.

 

[767intl]

Yeah, you are right, USAPA is living in absolute fear that Wake is going to enforce his injunction, and that Elena Kagan Will soon be throwing them in the slammer for thought crimes against Nic.

PHX, I think USAPA's still living in fear of the Frog March!

There is case law that says you're wrong - merely having a contract approved by the majority does not relieve the union of it's DFR responsibility when negotiating that contract. The short and sweet is that the union has to negotiate for everyone equally and can't discriminate against members of a group merely because they're members of that group, nor can the majority use the union to advance it's position relative to members of that group.

Jim

Then cite the on-point case law, Jim. Your jawboning doesn't make it so. Then re-read the new Ninth case law. The message is clear, the NIC may be irrelevant, as long as the contract is fair. IOW, fairness resides in what goes forward, not the constraints that this CBA does not have to follow (ie, the NIC).

You are missing what I am saying.

As of right now Judge Wake doesn't have the jurisdiction to sign a dismissal. The jurisdiction is still with the Ninth Circuit until it rules on any request for an en banc hearing as long as one is timely filed by the Addington plaintiffs. If the Ninth Circuit denies an en banc request there would still be time then allowed for a writ of certiorari to be filed and decided by the SCOTUS.

As for Oldie's thoughts on whether or not the Ninth will grant an en banc review, I place the odds that they will at over 50%. If the decision had been unanimously then I would have cut those odds to under 25%.

HP_fa, where are you getting this? There little to no correlation between 3-0 Vs 2-1 rulings prompting en banc reviews. They're reviewed on the facts. Don't continue to ignore End-of-ALPA's and others accounts of criteria for en banc review. It isn't there. Read End-of-ALPA's post 325 for FRAP criteria. Then comment on how there could be an en banc hearing.

actually, they already have turned over the new list I believe.

I think some public schools west of the mississippi need to teach better reading comprehension. The 9th ruled on ripeness ONLY. They did respond to the dissenting opinion concerning reasons for and against DFR actions, but a new trial will be required once the case becomes ripe. They even discussed the doctrine of "a wide range of reasonableness" as the latitude given unions to negotiate.

All it took was an unbiased court that understands labor law.

They'll never get it, Oldie. A new trial means exactly that. From the beginning. (All over again). New depos, new motions. In light of the Ninth ruling, USAPA has no motivation to accept stipulated facts from Wake's trial or previous depos. But no trial until there is a new CBA in place. AOL hasn't even paid for this one. The Ninth reversed on ripeness only, but left enough hints on what they think of USAPA's DFR responsibility re' the NIC. They recognized (that means they actually stated) a NIC contract wouldn't pass a vote. It's clear from the ruling. Wake won't get another bite at this apple. According to the Ninth, he blew it letting this go to trial in the first place. Any future union-busting judge will have to rule based on what the Ninth found (now precedent) about the inclusion of the NIC. Even though the NIC might have been derived "fair and square" (MDA excepted), it was done by a different union. NIC is no longer the standard to judge "fairness" in a future CBA. But go ahead, try to raise more money to prolong the fight, maybe you'll get en banc (doubt it), maybe you'll get SCOTUS certiorari (doubt even more). Good Luck! Maybe you can get NRTW to back your next play. They love bashing unions.

 

[ChuckBewFarley]

Repeat post

 

[BoeingBoy]

Then cite the on-point case law, Jim.

I don't recall being your research assistant. It's out there and I'm sure a smart guy like you can find it if a "jawboner" like me could. With all that legal expertise you have it should be a snap...

Jim

 

[dariencc]

Gentlemen I have checked pacer again, yet there is still no filing for the plaintiffs on the federal record. Where is a copy of this wonderful example of legal genius in the MDA case?

Who did this lawyer file it with, the pony express? Did he write it for the plaintiffs and tell them this is what I would have filed?

If you all believe that the Nicolau is dead where is your harm now? So how can the MDA suit continue if you will never have to live under the Nicolau? You see no contract, no Nicolau, no harm, no ripeness, no case.

Explain your work.

Sounds like you have a lot of unpaid bills and are trying to collect some money before the news comes out. What court was this filed with?

Case 1:05-cv-04751-NG -VVP Document 97 Filed 03/24/10 Page 1 of 1

That is the tag from the last filing. Is there another MDA case? Nothing about a deadline extension either. Somebody post the order that extended the deadline.

If a tree falls in the woods and ClearDirect is not around to hear it, does it make a sound?

 

[767intl]

I said what if the company decides not to accept anything else but Nicolau? usapa is negotiating for seniorty and crew meals. What is usapa going to do? What leverge does usapa have to get anything but Nicolau?

The Ninth opened the door for a non-NIC contract as not being a DFR. They didn't have to go that far. They could have just ended their decision on ripeness. I doubt they added what they did without purpose.
The leverage will come from the NMB, which will make the ultimate decision on when contract negotiations have broken down and reached an impasse. If the company holds firm to the NIC, then that will be an impasse, even if everything else is agreed to. Of course, if LOA 93 grievance wins, the urgency of a contract becomes less. If the company has to pay 2/3 of its pilots 18% more, plus yearly pay increases, why would they be in any hurry to bring the other 1/3 up to parity?

The threat of an illegal job action will bring the wrath of more federal judges. Then you guys will learn what the RLA is all about. So what leverage do you have if the company stands on Nicolau?

Do you really think that after having gone as far as we have, this union is going to involve itself in any hint of illegal job action? Your continued lectures are absurd.

That is how it is being sold. That this MDA case will change the Nicolau. So now you are saying that it will not change the Nicolau or has little to do with it.

OH!

This case is against ALPA. You are asking for $175,000,000.00 of ALPA's money. We are not ALPA. How does this have any effect on us then?

Sounds like back sliding to me. So what is it about other than the money?

ps I guess if you do win it will effect me because the other ALPA airlines will close the jumpseat to usapa. That little $3000.00 assessment might tend to irritate some people just a bit.

First, $175M will BK ALPA. $30or 40M won't. It will just cause an assessment that will further weaken ALPA. I can't speak for MDA's ultimate goal, but an admission from ALPA that ALPA (through the activities of the East MC and MEC) failed to fairly represent the MDA pilots can be send to Nicolau, who still retains jurisdiction. If he was given a prove bogus list, how will he continue to rule? MDA may demand that, in lieu of putting ALPA out of business. If you can't figure out the rest, no point in wasting bandwidth explaining.

Closing the JS to USAPA? What a totally inane comment. That would cause what? A national jumpseat war? The $50M Duke DFR settlement and subsequent assessment didn't close DAL pilots to the JS, even though at the time, DAL couldn't RIK or ride its own jumpseats. Clear, it isn't USAPA suing ALPA, it's MDA pilots who got tossed under the bus. As your situation becomes more desperate, your scenarios get more ridiculous.

 

[cleardirect]

If a tree falls in the woods and ClearDirect is not around to hear it, does it make a sound?

If someone says they filed in federal court but it does not show up. Was it really filed?