US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/2- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[traderjake]

After all, they will understand a new hire going in front of a guy with 17 yrs. with no furlough!

They will understand that the guy with 17 yrs was the last man on his list and the first to be furloughed because we went from 400 to 230 airplanes.

Apparently that's beyond your comprehension.

 

[traderjake]

Huh? Any one I have had on my jumpseat has thought you guys are the greediest group of pilots with the largest sense of entitlement!!

Since I am an East pilot that makes your statement correct.

Try asking a pilot who did not just beg you for a ride.

 

[Phoenix]

They will understand that the guy with 17 yrs was the last man on his list and the first to be furloughed because we went from 400 to 230 airplanes.

Apparently that's beyond your comprehension.

They won't get a vote so they won't have any impact on our CBA.

If I meet them when I am looking for a ride on their jump seat they get to vote about my ride request and then they can choose to have class or not, if they know my opinion.

But maybe I'll not bother them with topics they can't affect.

 

[Barrister]

That is my layman's interpretation also. While the Nic wasn't on trial in the District Court, the use or rejection of Nic was - that's what got the guilty verdict against USAPA. So it would appear that any menaingful tampering with the Nic award could very well end up with the same verdict against USAPA.

Jim


Yea, 3-5 years from now....then how ya gonna fix it......and what if there is another merger in the meantime.....or
may be just a couple of NO votes on a TA or maybe Parker won't even negotiate until he has to!!!!! and on and on and on....

VNIIMN
NPJBs

 

[Phoenix]

... That means that if USAPA wanted to negotiate something other than what the constitution calls for they realistically have no one with whom to negotiate. Maybe a solution can be reached to that, but I don't know and that gets into union politics, which I try to steer clear of.
...

There is no necessity that USAPA abandon its constitution during its negotiation with the company for a new CBA.

Once a negotiated CBA is ratified by a majority, a successful DFR suit seems about as probable as successfully suing USAPA for their constitution that was "ratified" by a majority.

 

[cleardirect]

OK all of you MDA supporters explain this.

The ninth just ruled that the Addington was not ripe because there is no ratified contract. The Nicolau can not be used without a joint contract. How is the MDA case ripe? No contract no harm.

Next if you are all so certain that usapa is going to get you DOH. Where is the harm from the Nicolau if it is gone? Kind of kills your whole suit.

 

[cleardirect]

I see that all of the east posters came out to gloat. You were right the ninth ruled the case was not ripe.

Now do you all believe that the Nicolau is gone and usapa is going to get you DOH? Any predictions when usapa hands the company a DOH list? Negotiating starts next week. Will that be the first thing on Monday?

Any prediction what the company will offer for seniority?

 

[luvn737s]

Has USAPA deployed the CIRP go team to deal with pilots too distraught to complete their flights?

Have east pilots overwhelmed the communications system of USAPA in their quest for information? Will they be sued for such maliciousness?

Nah, I didn'think so. Addington was the only thing that reminded Cleary there was a Phoenix base.

USAPA has had more than enough time. The time is RIPE for a representation election.

 

[luvn737s]

I'm still baffled by supposedly rational people who now proudly like to shout "NIC IS DEAD". The validity of the Nicolau award was not on trial, USAPA's behavior was. The 9th Circuit did not greenlight the evisceration of arbitration as a means of settling disputes, it merely said it couldn't see the damage done in proposing one seniority integration method over another. Now, when they actually breach their responsibility to present the Nicolau award by including it in any CBA offered for ratification, then the court will step in with an injunction prohibiting them implementing it, even if it is voted in by a majority.

The courts will not allow USAPA to be the beginning of the end of arbitrations. But delay is the prize here and I wouldn't be surprised to see USAPA under intense legal scrutiny of their actions and their accountability. The frat party that has been USAPA the past 2 years is probably going to be alot different going forward.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

I'm still baffled by supposedly rational people who now proudly like to shout "NIC IS DEAD". The validity of the Nicolau award was not on trial, USAPA's behavior was. The 9th Circuit did not greenlight the evisceration of arbitration as a means of settling disputes, it merely said it couldn't see the damage done in proposing one seniority integration method over another. Now, when they actually breach their responsibility to present the Nicolau award by including it in any CBA offered for ratification, then the court will step in with an injunction prohibiting them implementing it, even if it is voted in by a majority.

The courts will not allow USAPA to be the beginning of the end of arbitrations. But delay is the prize here and I wouldn't be surprised to see USAPA under intense legal scrutiny of their actions and their accountability. The frat party that has been USAPA the past 2 years is probably going to be alot different going forward.

YE
YEA, they get it, Cleary led out of the courtroom in handcuffs, MDA not ripe?, not to mention totally disregarded, our WEST WANABEE LAWYERS , spin it anyway they have to, NO INJUNCTION, your DFR, like EVERYONE elses just got thrown a 3rd strike and retired the sides,If you read the 88 MDA pages it is CRYSTAL CLEAR how this case differs (ripeness) and involves the NIC!, BUT then again you wouldn't listen to a mature dissenting view by WILDER and BAPTISTE so SPIN ON! MM!

 

[end_of_alpa]

When will your fighting end?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Can you both now please work for a solution and stop the insanity?!

This is advice well taken!!

It's been five years, whipsaw disparity, possibily a completely new trial with a new fact pattern, a new defendant (the company AND USAPA), a new location and a whole bunch more money to be raised. A WHOLE BUNCH!!

The ONLY way for this episode to end and a new one to begin is if ALL the pilots come together, support USAPA's negotiations to get a new CBA.

Now that it is a "start all over" campaign for AOL and the Jacobs law firm and raising a few more million dollars from the "aggrived" and already financially stressed party; I have just ONE question requiring a "yes" or "no" answer.

Lets say PAY and WORKING conditions, the overwhelming BULK of the CBA are issues that are addressed by USAPA and the Company to satisfy EVERY PILOT.

The new CBA WILL have a DOH provision with conditions and restrictions.

Having said that, don't debate or try to argue and convince anyone of their "rightous" causes, just answer the question.

My QUESTION:

Are there or could there be ANY possible conditions, restrictions, proposals, OTHER THAN OR IN LIEU OF THE NICOLAU AWARD that would cause you to vote for the CBA?

This goes out to the pilots only, with no spin if you please. Remember, YES OR NO!

Who has the courage to state that now? I say: YES.

What say you???

 

[end_of_alpa]

I'm still baffled by supposedly rational people who now proudly like to shout "NIC IS DEAD". The validity of the Nicolau award was not on trial, USAPA's behavior was. The 9th Circuit did not greenlight the evisceration of arbitration as a means of settling disputes, it merely said it couldn't see the damage done in proposing one seniority integration method over another. Now, when they actually breach their responsibility to present the Nicolau award by including it in any CBA offered for ratification, then the court will step in with an injunction prohibiting them implementing it, even if it is voted in by a majority.

The courts will not allow USAPA to be the beginning of the end of arbitrations. But delay is the prize here and I wouldn't be surprised to see USAPA under intense legal scrutiny of their actions and their accountability. The frat party that has been USAPA the past 2 years is probably going to be alot different going forward.

No, they won't. But I think you need to read the decision AGAIN.

I'll quote:

"Although it is common for a merger to raise the issue of
integrating seniority lists, this case contains an added wrinkle.
The East Pilots, who were dissatisfied with the seniority integration
proposal ALPA arrived at through the union’s internal
arbitration, led a successful effort to decertify ALPA and
replace it with a new union, US Airline Pilots Association
(“USAPA”). Headed by an East Pilot, USAPA was constitutionally
committed to pursuing date-of-hire principles, in contrast
to ALPA, whose merger policy committed it to pursuing
the arbitrated seniority list."

Read this passage carefully. ALPA arbitration is NOT arbitration, is is POLICY!! A rose by any other name. Jacobs tried to infer the FAA in oral argument. That fell on deaf ears, because the FAA doesn't apply to RLA unions. The NMB company/union arbitrations are LEGALLY enforcable arbitrations.

This case is not about arbitrations, it's about a VOTE and the MAJORITY understood that. Bybee had no solution but voting stalemate, future litigation for years to come and quite possibly bankruptcy for the labor unions. The MAJORITY saw it for what it was.

As far as En Banc, chances are slim to nil. I'm make NO predition other than that. Read the FRAP here if you want, it explains the circumstances for En Banc review.

http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/uploads/rules/rules.htm#1109234

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

No, they won't. But I think you need to read the decision AGAIN.

I'll quote:

"Although it is common for a merger to raise the issue of
integrating seniority lists, this case contains an added wrinkle.
The East Pilots, who were dissatisfied with the seniority integration
proposal ALPA arrived at through the union’s internal
arbitration, led a successful effort to decertify ALPA and
replace it with a new union, US Airline Pilots Association
(“USAPA”). Headed by an East Pilot, USAPA was constitutionally
committed to pursuing date-of-hire principles, in contrast
to ALPA, whose merger policy committed it to pursuing
the arbitrated seniority list."

Read this passage carefully. ALPA arbitration is NOT arbitration, is is POLICY!! A rose by any other name. Jacobs tried to infer the FAA in oral argument. That fell on deaf ears, because the FAA doesn't apply to RLA unions. The NMB company/union arbitrations are LEGALLY enforcable arbitrations.

This case is not about arbitrations, it's about a VOTE and the MAJORITY understood that. Bybee had no solution but voting stalemate, future litigation for years to come and quite possibly bankruptcy for the labor unions. The MAJORITY saw it for what it was.

As far as En Banc, chances are slim to nil. I'm make NO predition other than that. Read the FRAP here if you want, it explains the circumstances for En Banc review.

http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/uploads/rules/rules.htm#1109234

Thank You EOA, for your clear and direct explanation, don't be surprised if you have to explain it 1 more time! MM! They won't get MDA either till it marches up behind them, hey wasn't that what happend to the Army of , well thanks for the explain! MM!

 

[Freighterguynow]

[size="2"USAPA has been a "consistent objection to every strategic initiative generated by US Airways management,

So you support multiple base closures, furloughs and repeated violations of the TA as long as you personally net a meager raise?

 

[Piedmont1984]

Thank You EOA, for your clear and direct explanation, don't be surprised if you have to explain it 1 more time! MM! They won't get MDA either till it marches up behind them, hey wasn't that what happend to the Army of , well thanks for the explain! MM!

I think we should tweak our C&BLs. I would like to see our BPR, with PHX input in the form of polling, change the conditions and restrictions in order to address the most serious west concerns.

We have an opportunity here to finally end this conflict.

This would be a good time to be generous till it hurts. Lets apply salve - not salt.

KV