US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/2- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[cleardirect]

Question for the glee club. What happens if the company decides to stand on principle and actually does what they say they were going to do and hold firm on the Nicolau as the list?

What leverage does usapa have to get anything other than the Nicolau?

As Seham said seniority is negotiated like a crew meal. What are you willing to give up for the entire pilot group to get something the east pilots? Did that like a DFR?

How does usapa get more money, line bidding, more vacation, more more more? The company knows the big ticket items that usapa wants. What are you guys willing to give away? Will you give away the west vacation to get DOH? Will you give away some of our good scheduling provisions to get DOH? Will you accept a pay raise for the east but a lower scale for the west, $140.00? Let’s see you take from the west to give more to the east. That sounds like a DFR.

 

[nic4us]

You are saying "They were padding the damages"?

No. I am questioning the origin of the invoice, it authenticity, and accuracy.

Was this exact document entered into public record when AOL sought these fees?

 

[cleardirect]

actually, they already have turned over the new list I believe.

I think some public schools west of the mississippi need to teach better reading comprehension. The 9th ruled on ripeness ONLY. They did respond to the dissenting opinion concerning reasons for and against DFR actions, but a new trial will be required once the case becomes ripe. They even discussed the doctrine of "a wide range of reasonableness" as the latitude given unions to negotiate.

All it took was an unbiased court that understands labor law.

I believe that you would be wrong. The ruling happened on Friday. Prior to this usapa was precluded from turning over a DOH list. They tried but the company would not even touch it. So no the company does not have a DOH list.

The two sides did not meet today so just when would the union have turned over this gem? You really think that usapa is going to give the company a DOH list?

Seham argued 5 issued. Are you telling me that the court chose to ignore 4 other issues?

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Question for the glee club. What happens if the company decides to stand on principle and actually does what they say they were going to do and hold firm on the Nicolau as the list?

What leverage does usapa have to get anything other than the Nicolau?

As Seham said seniority is negotiated like a crew meal. What are you willing to give up for the entire pilot group to get something the east pilots? Did that like a DFR?

How does usapa get more money, line bidding, more vacation, more more more? The company knows the big ticket items that usapa wants. What are you guys willing to give away? Will you give away the west vacation to get DOH? Will you give away some of our good scheduling provisions to get DOH? Will you accept a pay raise for the east but a lower scale for the west, $140.00? Let’s see you take from the west to give more to the east. That sounds like a DFR.

Man, that must have been some primo blue agave. You should really know your limit. You think the company would risk a job action over you guys? Pilots really do have an inflated sense of self worth.

 

[cleardirect]

No. I am questioning the origin of the invoice, it authenticity, and accuracy.

Was this exact document entered into public record when AOL sought these fees?

No that is not a public record document. I also believe that it is a violation of this board to publish someone’s name and address.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

I believe that you would be wrong. The ruling happened on Friday. Prior to this usapa was precluded from turning over a DOH list. They tried but the company would not even touch it. So no the company does not have a DOH list.

The two sides did not meet today so just when would the union have turned over this gem? You really think that usapa is going to give the company a DOH list?

Seham argued 5 issued. Are you telling me that the court chose to ignore 4 other issues?

I thought they had just before the injunction. If not, I expect them to within days, since I know they've been working on one.

Apparently yes, they did ignore the other issues. Since found "not ripe" it will be dismissed, just as if it never happened.

 

[cleardirect]

Nic is dead----- Here's why!

The 9th said the CBA does not need to include the Nic, as long as whatever our union comes up with is not unfair to the West.

If our union were to include the Nic in the CBA, the MDA pilots would again file another DFR, this time against USAPA, for using a flawed list, (which they are in the process of proving).

Nic is DEAD, or at least on its death bed.

Gentlemen I have checked pacer again, yet there is still no filing for the plaintiffs on the federal record. Where is a copy of this wonderful example of legal genius in the MDA case?

Who did this lawyer file it with, the pony express? Did he write it for the plaintiffs and tell them this is what I would have filed?

If you all believe that the Nicolau is dead where is your harm now? So how can the MDA suit continue if you will never have to live under the Nicolau? You see no contract, no Nicolau, no harm, no ripeness, no case.

Explain your work.

Sounds like you have a lot of unpaid bills and are trying to collect some money before the news comes out. What court was this filed with?

Case 1:05-cv-04751-NG -VVP Document 97 Filed 03/24/10 Page 1 of 1

That is the tag from the last filing. Is there another MDA case? Nothing about a deadline extension either. Somebody post the order that extended the deadline.

 

[cleardirect]

I thought they had just before the injunction. If not, I expect them to within days, since I know they've been working on one.

Apparently yes, they did ignore the other issues. Since found "not ripe" it will be dismissed, just as if it never happened.

All of that work and money wasted. Should have picked just one argument. But I guess the shotgun approach with pilots money is good enough for the east.

 

[nic4us]

You think the company would risk a job action over you guys? Pilots really do have an inflated sense of self worth.

You are saying the "line crossing" east pilots would engage in an illegal job action if the company actually has the integrity to stick to its contractual obligation to honor the results of the Nic award it has already accepted (per its obligations)and stated as much in a federal trial under oath?

Try to keep up with all the facts in this case. The 9th gave usapa breathing room to further stall and/or violate its DFR in the future. Its decision has nothing to do with wether the company will become usapian and renege on it contracts. Even under threat that the east pilots would be the immature, self centered, cry babies they have proven themselves to be and storm off in another tizzy fit over not getting their way.

Just to highlight how much more proffesional the West pilot group is compared to the east, I propose we wait a month and look back at how the 9th ruling effects West operational performance. My prediction, no where even close to the east meltdowns after the Nic got published or their loss in wake's courtroom. Probably not even a significant measurable decline.

The Nic is not going anywhere accept into a contract at LCC. It will take longer now, but thems the facts. The fake union is cost us all millions in lost wages and legal fees on a fools errand of end running arbitration. The west is pissed, but we are not losing much sleep, and I personally need to get some.

Good night.

 

[end_of_alpa]

You are missing what I am saying.

As of right now Judge Wake doesn't have the jurisdiction to sign a dismissal. The jurisdiction is still with the Ninth Circuit until it rules on any request for an en banc hearing as long as one is timely filed by the Addington plaintiffs. If the Ninth Circuit denies an en banc request there would still be time then allowed for a writ of certiorari to be filed and decided by the SCOTUS.

As for Oldie's thoughts on whether or not the Ninth will grant an en banc review, I place the odds that they will at over 50%. If the decision had been unanimously then I would have cut those odds to under 25%.

Man HP, you really like to stretch. First, remove a 0 from that 50%. Second why don't you actually READ FRAP.

Read the FRAP again:

When Hearing or Rehearing En Banc May Be Ordered. A majority of the circuit judges who are in regular active service and who are not disqualified may order that an appeal or other proceeding be heard or reheard by the court of appeals en banc. An en banc hearing or rehearing is not favored and ordinarily will not be ordered unless:

(1) en banc consideration is necessary to secure or maintain uniformity of the court’s decisions; or

(2) the proceeding involves a question of exceptional importance.

(B) Petition for Hearing or Rehearing En Banc. A party may petition for a hearing or rehearing en banc.

(1) The petition must begin with a statement that either:

(A) the panel decision conflicts with a decision of the United States Supreme Court or of the court to which the petition is addressed (with citation to the conflicting case or cases) and consideration by the full court is therefore necessary to secure and maintain uniformity of the court’s decisions; or

(B) the proceeding involves one or more questions of exceptional importance, each of which must be concisely stated; for example, a petition may assert that a proceeding presents a question of exceptional importance if it involves an issue on which the panel decision conflicts with the authoritative decisions of other United States Courts of Appeals that have addressed the issue.


As usual, you overlook the obvious. How's your judge "Dad" doing in the court system, anyway???

My prediction: En Banc....DENIED!

Supreme Court: Certiorari......DENIED!

So far my case law research has done better than Jacobs. Hey maybe they should hire....ME!

 

[end_of_alpa]

Question for the glee club. What happens if the company decides to stand on principle and actually does what they say they were going to do and hold firm on the Nicolau as the list?

What leverage does usapa have to get anything other than the Nicolau?

As Seham said seniority is negotiated like a crew meal. What are you willing to give up for the entire pilot group to get something the east pilots? Did that like a DFR?

How does usapa get more money, line bidding, more vacation, more more more? The company knows the big ticket items that usapa wants. What are you guys willing to give away? Will you give away the west vacation to get DOH? Will you give away some of our good scheduling provisions to get DOH? Will you accept a pay raise for the east but a lower scale for the west, $140.00? Let’s see you take from the west to give more to the east. That sounds like a DFR.

Read the decision and the transition agreement....AGAIN.

The company has few economic restrictions requied of the union. There could be a plethora of lists the company could accept besides Nicolau OR DOH. The company isn't going to impede that. They would like to see this behind us.

Tell you what, odds of DOH list in next contract %100 without job action OR givebacks.

You guys win some battles but you keep LOSING THE WAR!!!

 

[end_of_alpa]

Now that you all have done your end zone dance I have a question. Seham brought 5 issues to the court of appeals of why USAPA was wronged.

What happened to the other four issues? The court did not address them at all. It is not like the court found one reason and stopped. No Seham was wrong on 4 out of 5 arguments. Not a very good record.

Now as for ripeness. The first Addington case might be over. But no where in there did the court say that usapa did nothing wrong. All it said was that it was brought to soon. This was a test run. Since by definition arbitration is considered fair. Anything other than the Nicolau could be considered unfair. Anything other than the Nicolau usapa will have to explain to a court why it is fair.

You all need to be careful here and read what this opinion says.

By deferring judicial intervention, we leave USAPA to bargain in good faith pursuant to its DFR, with the interests of all members — both East and West — in mind, under pain of an unquestionably ripe DFR suit, once a contract is ratified.

For those that don’t know. The ninth circuit said that what you proposed in court, the DOH with your lovely C&R would be unquestionably found to be a DFR case. DOH without this weak C&R would be even further over the line.

Now anyone here still think that usapa is going to at any time turn over a DOH list to the company?

armyofleonidas.com got shut down. I wonder if AOL and Jacobs going to be sued for court costs. Looking forward to that!

As usual, "Cape Marauder" and his "SPIN" machine reemerge as a reincarnation of the Hindenburg DISASTER!

"Oh, the HUMANITY"!! Bag of gas deflated because of your use of methane instead of helium. History repeats itself.

Good riddance AOL.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Yeah, you are right, USAPA is living in absolute fear that Wake is going to enforce his injunction, and that Elena Kagan Will soon be throwing them in the slammer for thought crimes against Nic.

"It's only a flesh wound!!"

 

[end_of_alpa]

This, however, cannot wait a day for a response.

It is with great dismay that I must point out, after all your self proclaimed false rehtoric about the east not having such amongst their ranks, that 2600 and some odd east pilots did not have the intestinal fortitude or integrity to live by their convictions and obligations, and "crossed the line".

Oh, I get it!! Before, one has to PHYSICALLY cross a picket line to be called a scab!

Then ALPA get's to name any airline it wants to, like Freedom, a "scab" airline after screwing furloughed US Airways pilots.

Now, you AOL guys just draw an ARBITRARY line in the sand (of course all the while the wind of adversity is blowing straight in your face) on the beaches of Louisiana so you can call East pilots "scabs". How trite.

Looks like the tide came in and the oil slick covers your argument.

Get a life.

 

[Black Swan]

Wow did this thread light up.

I think I will wait another day or so for the usual suspects to quit slapping each others backs to point out all the wholes in their improper assumptions of what this ruling means. Cleary certainly does not understand what just happened, otherwise he may not have just stated the unions intent to violate the still in force injunction against the fake union.

But for now I will concede, you have temporarily dodged the damages trial in the short term, and will not have to pay the AOL attorney fees. Actually quite the victory for your side, congratulations, don't spend it just yet.

(By the way, did someone actually post account numbers and phone numbers on an invoice? Where did you get that? and how do you know it is not just the invoice they had ready for usapa to pay? kind of the full y fare vs the buddy pass invoice.)

Not only the damages FOREVER, but also the Nic Forever. You better read this thing carefully. The NIC is DOA