US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/2- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[767jetz]

We agreed to let a third party decide what was fair. The east pilots don’t get to decide what is fair then impose it on the west.

That's the problem. The East isn't able to understand the simple concept that fairness is in the eye of the beholder. Obviously when you are passionate about your opinions you are not, by definition, objective. Hence the need for a third party. Kinda like marriage counceling. You can't keep "shopping" your opinon until you find someone who agrees with you.

The East really believes that they are the only ones who know, and are allowed to dictate, what the meaning of fair really is.

 

[nic4us]

The company has remained neutral on the question of seniority. And now they are going to pick sides. I don't think so.

Finally, an east poster who got something right.

Now ask yourself, what have they already picked? Or more precisely, what are they contractually obligated to do?

 

[767jetz]

They won't have a choice of what they accept. There's a federal law now that will determine seniority. The rest of your argument doesn't work, either.

Getting out of ALPA was the smartest thing this pilot group has ever done.

That makes no sense. You all said yourselves that the majority can negotiate whatever they want. Any other pilot group with 10,000+ pilots will dictate the terms to you.

Be careful what you wish for.

 

[AWE Dog]

That's the problem. The East isn't able to understand the simple concept that fairness is in the eye of the beholder. Obviously when you are passionate about your opinions you are not, by definition, objective. Hence the need for a third party. Kinda like marriage counceling. You can't keep "shopping" your opinon until you find someone who agrees with you.

The East really believes that they are the only ones who know, and are allowed to dictate, what the meaning of fair really is.

Oh, And the west is all about fair, just go away.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

That makes no sense. You all said yourselves that the majority can negotiate whatever they want. Any other pilot group with 10,000+ pilots will dictate the terms to you.

Be careful what you wish for.

It's the law. Like it or not. Oh, maybe you didn't know that it won't apply to two ALPA carriers. They will have to live with whatever ridiculous method of integration ALPA comes up with.

Being an ALPA member just got to be more of an expensive, bad joke.

 

[john john]

They won't have a choice of what they accept. There's a federal law now that will determine seniority. The rest of your argument doesn't work, either.

Getting out of ALPA was the smartest thing this pilot group has ever done.

Isn’t ALPA exempt from the federal law?

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Isn’t ALPA exempt from the federal law?

The law only pertains to groups with different unions. Since most airlines are represented by ALPA, it won't apply. This is the case for UAL-CAL and DAL-NWA. Since LCC pilots aren't associated with ALPA, the law DOES apply. In fact, since we have our own union, it will apply for whomever we merge with.

 

[cleardirect]

Actually, frivolous lawsuits are filed everyday. What blows me away is how far this one got, and all because of one judge. This one should have been gone after the first motion.

Judge Wake should have to pay the court costs out of his pocket.

One of the first things usapa did was file a frivolous RICO law suit against west pilots. But that one was shot down by a federal judge in NC before it even got started dismissed with prejudice. It did not make it past the first motion. But instead of going away usapa has pushed it to an appeal.

Should usapa be made to pay the costs of that suit? Because they will.

 

[cleardirect]

They won't have a choice of what they accept. There's a federal law now that will determine seniority. The rest of your argument doesn't work, either.

Getting out of ALPA was the smartest thing this pilot group has ever done.

What does that federal law say? It says that it will go to FINAL and BINDING ARBITRATION.

There is no set way of merging two lists under M&B. It uses AM.

We could have ended up with the exact same Nicolau under M&B or ALPA merger policy.

AM does not say DOH.

 

[MyJ4JjobSucks]

767Jetz

Do you think all 1400+ furloughed pilots at United should be stapled to the bottom of the new CAL / UAL list, thereby giving them a 2010 hire date?

What would be better for UAL, CAL, DAL, AA pilots in a merger with US Airways. Having guys in their mid to late 50's senior to them and fenced in to their own bases, or having guys in their early to mid 30's senior to them with no fences?

 

[AWE Dog]

What does that federal law say? It says that it will go to FINAL and BINDING ARBITRATION.

There is no set way of merging two lists under M&B. It uses AM.

We could have ended up with the exact same Nicolau under M&B or ALPA merger policy.

AM does not say DOH.

Your correct it does not say DOH, but it IS.

 

[cleardirect]

It's the law. Like it or not. Oh, maybe you didn't know that it won't apply to two ALPA carriers. They will have to live with whatever ridiculous method of integration ALPA comes up with.

Being an ALPA member just got to be more of an expensive, bad joke.

So according to you a ridiculous method of integration is to go to a third party neutral arbitrator. Present 10 days of testimony where both sides are represented by attorneys and expects.

But your fair way to do it is to have one side, the majority, go into a room and decide what they think is fair for both sides then impose that outcome on the other side. Then have the majority vote whether they think that is fair and the minority sit back accept it.

East logic at work again.

 

[cleardirect]

Your correct it does not say DOH, but it IS.

But it does not have to be.

If we go into another merger it will not be DOH under AM/M&B


What will you guys do if we merge again and you don't get what you again? You would be the minority in the next round. Willing to accept whatever the majority forces on you? They think it is fair and they get to decide. At least that is what usapa is saying.

For the sake of the argument, if as you say M&B is DOH. Would DAL/UAL/AA be able to ignore binding arbitration under M&B if they don't like the outcome.

 

[Black Swan]

That's the problem. The East isn't able to understand the simple concept that fairness is in the eye of the beholder. Obviously when you are passionate about your opinions you are not, by definition, objective. Hence the need for a third party. Kinda like marriage counceling. You can't keep "shopping" your opinon until you find someone who agrees with you.

The East really believes that they are the only ones who know, and are allowed to dictate, what the meaning of fair really is.

Are you even familiar how this airline has merged? Allegheny Lake Central, Alleg. Mohawk, USAir PSA USAir Piedmont all date of hire. Allegheny -Mohawk is a textbook example in the NAA handbook. Cited as one of the fairest methods out there. We have a history of the most and most fair mergers, aside from this abortion. Now you want to claim this as being fair? The East understands a lot more than you or the West. Show me another textbook of a Nic type deal. The one that was so bad it exploded the union and kept a company from merging.I would imagine that you will see the Nic soon in the handbook as a textbook example of a failed integration.Not to be attempted or repeated.Mergers? We understand a lot more than you do. And by the way, UAL stacks up pretty badly against Continental. The pilots there are none too happy about joining your group.

 

[Black Swan]

Perhaps in the future. But not retroactively. This is still where there is much disagreement. To many, past agreements can not be "un-done" simply by changing names. Your C&BL's are fine going forward but do not erase what's already been agreed to.

Of course we all know that there are strong opinions on both sides of that issue, and we have YEARS of debate just on this forum alone to prove it. But until there is actually a contract in place and US is operating with one seniority list, with no more challenges on the horizon, until THEN, you are all still in limbo.

Move the ball down the field, see where things go, and maybe we'll have new things to debate. In the mean time this is over 80 pages of the same old argument. This dispute will be over eventually. But my money is on years, not months of the status quo. Ironically, I think the comments of many here since Friday have only ensured a long battle from the west.

Fine. All a lot of us want is a win on the LOA 84 pay. If we get that, then this can go on forever.