US Pilots Labor Discussion

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

900 ACTIVE pilots to the bottom of the list? Just exactly where were these "active" pilots employed in May 2005? To say they were offered recall rights AFTER the merger had taken place, would be more accurate. BTW, it wasn't our "offer". The Nicolau list is the product of an agreed upon process (all THREE parties). When you decide to arbitrate, you give up ALL control to the "judge". The majority of the East thought Nicolau failed because he REFUSED to accept YOUR DATE OF HIRE "proposal".

You are right about one thing: We will NEVER agree. It does however matter. It will eventually be adjudicated to a final conclusion.

With all your soapbox declarations, you have got to be one of the furloughed AAA pilots. Perhaps even one of the guys that flew at Mid Atlantic and said you really weren't even furloughed. What say you?

ADJUDICATED TO A FINAL CONCLUSION?, Your right we will never agree! MM!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

MUT;
You're gonna have to re-read posts before you respond in your Mut-ese. I inferred that those wages would be around that by the time the new hires reached the left seat on the East. Don't forget, Delta (NW) is NOW getting ready to negotiate a SECOND contract with management. Rumor has it that Cleary & Mowrey turned down a Delta wage/ AWA Contract 2004 during the last UAL merger attempt because they would have to accept the Nicolau award. That's essentially $120,000 of cash, 401K contributions, vacation & scheduling improvements PI$$ED AWAY.

USAPA = What can we wear to show that we're YELLOW?

No my comprehension Sport of your post was right on!, his options, fly capt at 125hr, (chek those DAL payrates for F/O) or fly F/O under your guidance and the NIC for less than125hr, I will take option #1, !

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

FO
Aircraft B777/B747-400 B787 A330/B767-40 B757/B767 B737NG A319/A320
12 $142.56 $136.57 $134.65 $119.32 $114.42 $110.41
11 $136.00 $130.00 $128.00 $113.00 $109.00 $105.00
10 $135.00 $129.00 $127.00 $112.00 $108.00 $104.00
9 $133.00 $127.00 $125.00 $110.00 $107.00 $103.00
8 $131.00 $126.00 $124.00 $109.00 $105.00 $102.00
7 $128.00 $123.00 $121.00 $107.00 $103.00 $99.00
6 $125.00 $120.00 $118.00 $104.00 $100.00 $97.00
5 $122.00 $117.00 $115.00 $101.00 $98.00 $94.00
4 $119.00 $114.00 $112.00 $99.00 $96.00 $92.00
3 $116.00 $111.00 $110.00 $96.00 $93.00 $90.00
2 $99.00 $95.00 $94.00 $82.00 $80.00 $77.00
1 $52.00 $52.00 $52.00 $52.00 $52.00 $52.00
Aircraft MD-90 MD-
Since we have no 777/747/ 330 at 119, you see to take the attrition and be our own boss at 125hr is worth it instead of under the NIC retiring in the RIGHT SEAT, ATTRITION TRAIN!MM!

 

[Pi brat]

900 ACTIVE pilots to the bottom of the list? Just exactly where were these "active" pilots employed in May 2005? To say they were offered recall rights AFTER the merger had taken place, would be more accurate. BTW, it wasn't our "offer". The Nicolau list is the product of an agreed upon process (all THREE parties). When you decide to arbitrate, you give up ALL control to the "judge". The majority of the East thought Nicolau failed because he REFUSED to accept YOUR DATE OF HIRE "proposal".

You are right about one thing: We will NEVER agree. It does however matter. It will eventually be adjudicated to a final conclusion.

With all your soapbox declarations, you have got to be one of the furloughed AAA pilots. Perhaps even one of the guys that flew at Mid Atlantic and said you really weren't even furloughed. What say you?

What say I? I've waited a long time to say this! It's all right there in the Nicolau award, maybe you should read it some time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

From page 13 of............THE NICOLAU AWARD:

The America West Proposal
America West's initial proposal differed dramatically from that of
US Airways. As previously indicated, its position, when first presented
in detail, was a series of ratios accompanied with a two year condition
and restriction reserving to US Airways pilots all Captain positions on
the 9 A330 aircraft flying international routes as of May 19, 2005. The
firat proposed ratio was not Captain to Captain. Instead, America West
added to its 855 Captains an additional 114 First Officers, who,
America West claimed, expected captaincies based on the 19 A320s on
firm order as of May 2005(notice that, AWA used May 2005 here). That combined figure (969) was to be

integrated on a straight ratio basis with 1121 US Airways Captains, a
number derived from staffing assumptions based on what 'were 221 US
Airways aircraft as of February 2006. (Hmm, 2006 here, not the 2005 used above. Why? Could it be that we had 50 or so less A/C by then? Naw) This ratio would be followed by an
integration of the remaining America West First Officers (925) with
1051 US Airways First Officers, also on a straight ratio basis. After the
reinsertion of those on extended medical leaves and those in nonflying
positions, this would put 2431 US Airways pilots on the bottom of
the list, 959 of whom were active pilots as of May 19, 2005 with the
remaining 1472 furloughees.

That sir, was the west's proposal. I wonder why in the world we couldn't find any middle ground! :blink: I know you won't believe me as this certainly doesn't sound fair and your group has been held up as the keepers of all that is good and pure in the world. Don't take my word for it, the version of the award that allowed me to copy and paste came from...............cactuspilot.com! Ever heard of it? 😛

I say, no sir, not furloughed in '05, not MDA. Mid '86 hire. A320 captain. Never furloughed, never missed a paycheck and first captain check out in 1992. But thanks for asking. Any other questions?

 

[Pi brat]

No my comprehension Sport of your post was right on!, his options, fly capt at 125hr, (chek those DAL payrates for F/O) or fly F/O under your guidance and the NIC for less than125hr, I will take option #1, !

Hey MM. This guys has been studying under a few AOL leaders for too long. When numbers don't add up, they just come up with assumptions to make them work. The the 3 gazillion dollars and hour we would all be making right now had we stayed with ALPA.

 

[cleardirect]

FO
Aircraft B777/B747-400 B787 A330/B767-40 B757/B767 B737NG A319/A320
12 $142.56 $136.57 $134.65 $119.32 $114.42 $110.41
11 $136.00 $130.00 $128.00 $113.00 $109.00 $105.00
10 $135.00 $129.00 $127.00 $112.00 $108.00 $104.00
9 $133.00 $127.00 $125.00 $110.00 $107.00 $103.00
8 $131.00 $126.00 $124.00 $109.00 $105.00 $102.00
7 $128.00 $123.00 $121.00 $107.00 $103.00 $99.00
6 $125.00 $120.00 $118.00 $104.00 $100.00 $97.00
5 $122.00 $117.00 $115.00 $101.00 $98.00 $94.00
4 $119.00 $114.00 $112.00 $99.00 $96.00 $92.00
3 $116.00 $111.00 $110.00 $96.00 $93.00 $90.00
2 $99.00 $95.00 $94.00 $82.00 $80.00 $77.00
1 $52.00 $52.00 $52.00 $52.00 $52.00 $52.00
Aircraft MD-90 MD-
Since we have no 777/747/ 330 at 119, you see to take the attrition and be our own boss at 125hr is worth it instead of under the NIC retiring in the RIGHT SEAT, ATTRITION TRAIN!MM!

Would you even had seen the left seat? Will you ever see the left seat?

Your own number say the longest wait any east pilot had was 2 years with the Nicolau. If your career is so poor a 2 years delay will wreck your life. It was not much to start with.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Would you even had seen the left seat? Will you ever see the left seat?

Your own number say the longest wait any east pilot had was 2 years with the Nicolau. If your career is so poor a 2 years delay will wreck your life. It was not much to start with.

Well one has to ask, If it really is only is 2 years what is your problem with LOS with C&R's? , unless you don't believe your own BS! MM!

 

[cactusboy53]

What say I? I've waited a long time to say this! It's all right there in the Nicolau award, maybe you should read it some time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

From page 13 of............THE NICOLAU AWARD:

The America West Proposal
America West's initial proposal differed dramatically from that of
US Airways. As previously indicated, its position, when first presented
in detail, was a series of ratios accompanied with a two year condition
and restriction reserving to US Airways pilots all Captain positions on
the 9 A330 aircraft flying international routes as of May 19, 2005. The
firat proposed ratio was not Captain to Captain. Instead, America West
added to its 855 Captains an additional 114 First Officers, who,
America West claimed, expected captaincies based on the 19 A320s on
firm order as of May 2005(notice that, AWA used May 2005 here). That combined figure (969) was to be

integrated on a straight ratio basis with 1121 US Airways Captains, a
number derived from staffing assumptions based on what 'were 221 US
Airways aircraft as of February 2006. (Hmm, 2006 here, not the 2005 used above. Why? Could it be that we had 50 or so less A/C by then? Naw) This ratio would be followed by an
integration of the remaining America West First Officers (925) with
1051 US Airways First Officers, also on a straight ratio basis. After the
reinsertion of those on extended medical leaves and those in nonflying
positions, this would put 2431 US Airways pilots on the bottom of
the list, 959 of whom were active pilots as of May 19, 2005 with the
remaining 1472 furloughees.

That sir, was the west's proposal. I wonder why in the world we couldn't find any middle ground! :blink: I know you won't believe me as this certainly doesn't sound fair and your group has been held up as the keepers of all that is good and pure in the world. Don't take my word for it, the version of the award that allowed me to copy and paste came from...............cactuspilot.com! Ever heard of it? 😛

I say, no sir, not furloughed in '05, not MDA. Mid '86 hire. A320 captain. Never furloughed, never missed a paycheck and first captain check out in 1992. But thanks for asking. Any other questions?

Yes. Are you angry? Oh wait......Never mind, posts are self explanatory. Our proposal was only that. The proposal to the Arbitrator. It is a position that we argued (just like the east argued DOH). The arbitrator took all the testimony and documentation and put together a merged list. DONE.

You can argue and delay all you want. It still doesn't change the final outcome. Delay buys you nothing but loss of time off, loss of income, loss of additional vacation, and other benefits.

Have a great day.

 

[Pi brat]

Yes. Are you angry? Oh wait......Never mind, posts are self explanatory. Our proposal was only that. The proposal to the Arbitrator. It is a position that we argued (just like the east argued DOH). The arbitrator took all the testimony and documentation and put together a merged list. DONE.

You can argue and delay all you want. It still doesn't change the final outcome. Delay buys you nothing but loss of time off, loss of income, loss of additional vacation, and other benefits.

Have a great day.

Uh, did any of that remotely have anything to do with what I posted. Let me answer that for you, NO!

Wasn't what you meant to say " Sorry, you're right, I was wrong."

 

[cactusboy53]

Uh, did any of that remotely have anything to do with what I posted. Let me answer that for you, NO!

Wasn't what you meant to say " Sorry, you're right, I was wrong."

Sorry Pi;
I read through the post and all I got out of it is the SAME OLD USAPA drivel. Blame, blame, blame. Delay, delay, delay.

Sorry, but in the VERY END, you sir are wrong and it is costing EVERYONE of us a raise.

Have a great day.

 

[Pi brat]

Sorry Pi;
I read through the post and all I got out of it is the SAME OLD USAPA drivel. Blame, blame, blame. Delay, delay, delay.

Sorry, but in the VERY END, you sir are wrong and it is costing EVERYONE of us a raise.

Have a great day.

As that post goes, no, I'm not.

Anything else, well that's your opinion. I advocated a different path before and all along this mess. I haven't advocated delay, I've just accepted it. What bugs me is when you guys say "You,you,you!" when its we. I think the company got it's idea for delay from AOL!

I am having a great day. Kinda cool and dry here in my part of NC, just dreading the heat in PHX tomorrow. Great day to you too.

 

[nic4us]

MUT;
You're gonna have to re-read posts before you respond in your Mut-ese. I inferred that those wages would be around that by the time the new hires reached the left seat on the East. Don't forget, Delta (NW) is NOW getting ready to negotiate a SECOND contract with management. Rumor has it that Cleary & Mowrey turned down a Delta wage/ AWA Contract 2004 during the last UAL merger attempt because they would have to accept the Nicolau award. That's essentially $120,000 of cash, 401K contributions, vacation & scheduling improvements PI$$ED AWAY.

USAPA = What can we wear to show that we're YELLOW?

Now there is a great crewnews question for Parker.

"Mr. Parker, during the UAL/LCC merger talks, Cleary and Mowery attended a meeting in PHX, then immediately ran to the 9th asking for an EMERGENCY decision to be granted in the Addington case. What exactly was that meeting about? Were any salary offers passed at that meeting to try and get usapa's support of the UAL/LCC merger?"

If it comes out Cleary refused to put out a tentative agreement offering a very large increase in wages and work rules, just way more fuel for the DFR fire, and an even bigger damages measuring stick. Also, usapa's "but a Nic inclusive contract would never be ratified" arguement goes right down the toilet.

 

[3dtv]

Total lie. Keep it up though.

 

[nic4us]

As that post goes, no, I'm not.

Anything else, well that's your opinion. I advocated a different path before and all along this mess. I haven't advocated delay, I've just accepted it. What bugs me is when you guys say "You,you,you!" when its we. I think the company got it's idea for delay from AOL!

I am having a great day. Kinda cool and dry here in my part of NC, just dreading the heat in PHX tomorrow. Great day to you too.

Oh, c'mon.

AOL was not even in existence when the east stormed out of joint contract negotiations. Nor was AOL around while the east held the representational vote.

The very first AOL organizational meeting occured months after the formation of usapa, I think even after usapa passed the company rejected DOH list at the bargaining table.

The company got the delay idea from merger 101 school. Pit the two work groups against each other, and see which idiots will undercut the other groups wages.

In our case the bigger idiot was the east pilot group. The east took the bait, hook, line and sinker. East..we want pay parity...company...pay parity will be reached through a joint contract.....East...we want DOH seniority integration....company.....we are remaining nuetral in the seniority integration process, but would like to see our labor groups do fair integrations......East...we are going to vote in a new union and force seperate ops and low wages indefinitely.....company...really? oh, that would be soooo terrible, please be reasonable with us.

 

[cleardirect]

Well one has to ask, If it really is only is 2 years what is your problem with LOS with C&R's? , unless you don't believe your own BS! MM!

Do you not even understand basic facts? Your guy said that using the NICOLAU would only delay at the most east pilots 2 years. Look at that pretty little blue and red dot waterfall you all swooned over a couple years ago. Using DOH would delay west pilot upgrades about 6-10 years.

So I will ask you your own question if it is only 2 years what is your problem with the Nicolau?