US Pilots Labor Discussion

[john john]

Not an obsession. Just an interest in airline merger precedents that can effect others, including me. Particularly the part about binding arbitration. That it's been explained to you many times, yet you still do claim to not understand only tells us that you are either dense, or refuse to accept an explanation that doesn't conform to your views. Which is it?

So it is your belief that the HP/US merger decision by the courts on seniority will set a precedent for UA/CO merger and future mergers

 

[No Land Green]

So it is your belief that the HP/US merger decision by the courts on seniority will set a precedent for UA/CO merger and future mergers

Of course it will. The recalled furloughed UAL Pilots are going to the CAL side. They "bring NOTHING to the table" in the UAL/CAL merger. They are new hires now at CAL, I meant "New UAL" LMAO!!!!!!

This ought to be good to watch that one play out, LMAO!!!!!! Jetz is NO friend of his unfortunate furloughed UAL Pilot brothers and sisters........

The comedy never ends here......I wonder how much does tea cost in china, hmmmmm.........any of you "mars" Westies know?

 

[767jetz]

I put it there, because YOU, and the west posters continue to go on and on about LOA 93. And our "grinding poverty" Home prices in PHX become extremely relevant in that context because a 55% decline in a home is big money. That, could also cause "grinding poverty" How do you begin to retire, if your home payment is possibly 300k underwater, or more? You can't sell and close out the mortgage.

Wow, with logic like that I hope your wife/significant other handles your finances. Did you even read what I said. Home values really mean nothing unless you fall into the categories I already listed. Your premise is that everyone relies on their home equity for retirement. That makes no sense. If you buy a house for $750K and planned to pay it of before turning 65 - then the value drops to $400K - you still pay off your mortgage by 65. How has that put anyone under water? What on earth do you mean by "sell and close out your mortgage??" Are you saying the only way to close out a mortgage is to sell? Does everyone plan to sell their house in retirement? Try to read this again slowly so you'll understand... Home equity means nothing unless you are selling and moving into a different market. If you have a loan that will adjust to a higher interest, making your payment more than you can service, THEN you will have to sell and take the loss to get out. How many west pilots fall into this category? Any you know of? Otherwise what you're saying does not apply and makes no sense. Do you understand what underwater even means? It means you owe more than it's worth? Only a factor if you are stupid enough to buy a home with 5% down, or worse, AND you can no longer service your loan. I can't believe I actually have to spell this out for you. Explain to us all how owning a home that is worth less than you paid affects retirement when none of your income relies on the value of your home. It might affect your heirs because when you pass there is less for your estate. But that's not what you're talking about.

And since YOU brought it up, having a bigger pay check is MUCH more important than home equity and value since higher income makes it possible to service the loan and avoid the need to downsize, or turn the paper loss into a real one.

You now have an anvil around your neck.You retire, and you have nothing other than what you saved.

Again, explain your conclusion and how it applies to home equity. Show your assumptions so we can see if your theory holds water. Don't we all have what we saved in retirement? Home value will only affect your worth, not your day to day finances if you stay in your home.

No PBGC either. Not that I would want anyone to have this situation, but it apparently is a sore and real subject to the west posters, who BEG us to take a contract and the Nic, so they can start to dig out of this hole. So, if they want to continue to bring up LOA 93, home values in PHX and LAS are a relevant fact in that discussion. Many of us in the east have seen some decline, but many of us have made some great money in real estate.Jetzzzz, we live within our means as you recommend. All in all, the east market is not bad. Housing values in PHX and LAS are extremely relevant, as you can see the west obsessed with getting the Nic and a contract. We in the east, will take LOA 93 and separate ops. Those prices have EVERYTHING to do with this.

You sound like one of those pilots who didn't save a nickle during the good years and relied solely on that pension. I flew with guys at UA who were 10 years from retirement when our pension was cancelled, and had never saved a penny in their 401k. Their entire B-fund had a value of maybe $100K. Pathetic for a pilot employed for 25 years. I don't know about you, but I was always taught never to rely on a promise or a pension for your retirement, since it can evaporate over night. And it did. I treated my pension like icing on the cake. In fact I would guess that since the west never had a pension, they were better at saving than most of you east pilots since day one, putting them in a far better position.

The west pilots are corralled in PHX, and the worst market in history.

As long as they wish to bash us with LOA 93, we will remind them of their own situation. Deal?

And how has this changed since the merger. With the exception of those who lived in Vegas, weren't they always in Phoenix? Another assumption on your part? That they somehow WANT to move to Charlotte instead? Could it POSSIBLY be that their "obsession" with getting a contract has nothing to do with home values and escaping a bad housing market, and everything to do with holding you to your obligations and not letting you fulfill your perceived entitlement at their expense?

As long as they wish to bash you with LOA 93, how about you come up with a counter "bash" that actually makes sense. Deal?

 

[767jetz]

So it is your belief that the HP/US merger decision by the courts on seniority will set a precedent for UA/CO merger and future mergers

Yes.

If binding arbitration is overturned then it sets a bad precedent for all types of negotiations that need a legal remedy to overcome impasse or to pressure parties to find middle ground.

 

[700UW]

WN and FL Pilots agreed to seniority integration, avoiding arbitration.

 

[luvn737s]

A lot of folks around here feel they have nothing left to lose. Not good if they are your employees or your enemy.

That's interesting that you say that. If they have nothing left to lose, then what is the value of their sacrifice?

 

[No Land Green]

That's interesting that you say that. If they have nothing left to lose, then what is the value of their sacrifice?

A-T-T-R-I-T-I-O-N

 

[luvn737s]

A-T-T-R-I-T-I-O-N

You're not getting it. If they burn the house down, there is no attrition. So again, what is the value of their sacrifice?

The point is, regardless of what they say, they do have something to lose, or they would have pulled the trigger long ago. They aren't out for the new-hire or the furloughee or the senior pilot - they are out for themselves and once they have sated that appetite, they will likely put on even less pretense of caring for anyone else, because they can't use them for anything else. Once the Angry F/O's get your vote, they will likely forget your name. Once they upgrade, they will find that it's high time they got a better contract. Once they see a few bucks in their pockets, all their safety concerns willl fade into a bad dream.

If a USAPA supporter is speaking to you, you can be assured they are lying (even if only to themselves).

 

[Black Swan]

Not an obsession. Just an interest in airline merger precedents that can effect others, including me. Particularly the part about binding arbitration. That it's been explained to you many times, yet you still do claim to not understand only tells us that you are either dense, or refuse to accept an explanation that doesn't conform to your views. Which is it?

haven t you figured it out after 5 yrs that it isn t binding? Every other arbitrated decision between the company and the pilots has been binding. There is, a difference.

 

[Black Swan]

Wow, with logic like that I hope your wife/significant other handles your finances. Did you even read what I said. Home values really mean nothing unless you fall into the categories I already listed. Your premise is that everyone relies on their home equity for retirement. That makes no sense. If you buy a house for $750K and planned to pay it of before turning 65 - then the value drops to $400K - you still pay off your mortgage by 65. How has that put anyone under water? What on earth do you mean by "sell and close out your mortgage??" Are you saying the only way to close out a mortgage is to sell? Does everyone plan to sell their house in retirement? Try to read this again slowly so you'll understand... Home equity means nothing unless you are selling and moving into a different market. If you have a loan that will adjust to a higher interest, making your payment more than you can service, THEN you will have to sell and take the loss to get out. How many west pilots fall into this category? Any you know of? Otherwise what you're saying does not apply and makes no sense. Do you understand what underwater even means? It means you owe more than it's worth? Only a factor if you are stupid enough to buy a home with 5% down, or worse, AND you can no longer service your loan. I can't believe I actually have to spell this out for you. Explain to us all how owning a home that is worth less than you paid affects retirement when none of your income relies on the value of your home. It might affect your heirs because when you pass there is less for your estate. But that's not what you're talking about.

And since YOU brought it up, having a bigger pay check is MUCH more important than home equity and value since higher income makes it possible to service the loan and avoid the need to downsize, or turn the paper loss into a real one.



Again, explain your conclusion and how it applies to home equity. Show your assumptions so we can see if your theory holds water. Don't we all have what we saved in retirement? Home value will only affect your worth, not your day to day finances if you stay in your home.




You sound like one of those pilots who didn't save a nickle during the good years and relied solely on that pension. I flew with guys at UA who were 10 years from retirement when our pension was cancelled, and had never saved a penny in their 401k. Their entire B-fund had a value of maybe $100K. Pathetic for a pilot employed for 25 years. I don't know about you, but I was always taught never to rely on a promise or a pension for your retirement, since it can evaporate over night. And it did. I treated my pension like icing on the cake. In fact I would guess that since the west never had a pension, they were better at saving than most of you east pilots since day one, putting them in a far better position.



And how has this changed since the merger. With the exception of those who lived in Vegas, weren't they always in Phoenix? Another assumption on your part? That they somehow WANT to move to Charlotte instead? Could it POSSIBLY be that their "obsession" with getting a contract has nothing to do with home values and escaping a bad housing market, and everything to do with holding you to your obligations and not letting you fulfill your perceived entitlement at their expense?

As long as they wish to bash you with LOA 93, how about you come up with a counter "bash" that actually makes sense. Deal?

Are you seriously telling someone, say a west pilot who paid 750 k for a house, paid it off at age 65 and then found the real value to be 400k that that would not be a hardship? Not underwater? Think about what you said, paying interest all those yrs. and then the value is less than half? Did daddy buy you your house and beemer that you are that dense about it? You obviously have no knowledge of finances if you are that cavalier. I read it slowly, home equity means everything, especially when this piece of crap airline stops floating, and they have to sell, say in two yrs. Then your Jetzz theory goes right in the toilet. I love your pension thinking also. No problem taking it was it for you Jetzz, seeing your age. How about your UAL friends about 6 months out? Two yrs. out? Too bad? You are disgusting. Genx pilot, Genx financial reasoning. Obviously born with a silver spoon in your mouth. Check the number of posts on our board, you are obsessed.

 

[No Land Green]

You're not getting it. If they burn the house down, there is no attrition. So again, what is the value of their sacrifice?

The point is, regardless of what they say, they do have something to lose, or they would have pulled the trigger long ago. They aren't out for the new-hire or the furloughee or the senior pilot - they are out for themselves and once they have sated that appetite, they will likely put on even less pretense of caring for anyone else, because they can't use them for anything else. Once the Angry F/O's get your vote, they will likely forget your name. Once they upgrade, they will find that it's high time they got a better contract. Once they see a few bucks in their pockets, all their safety concerns willl fade into a bad dream.

Who are "they"? 90+% of the East Pilots? Yes, we "get it".

If I were you, I would accept a recall to the East Side and be on that train when it leaves the station.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

I doubt it's an obsession, but more like a comforting fact that it continues to put financial pressure and motivation on many (if not all) east pilots to come to their senses and abandon a lost cause. You guys have prognosticated yourselves that a victory from Kasher would mean "game over" for ANY movement, and would seal the continued stalemate for decades. Have you not? Therefore the reverse can also be extrapolated from your own predictions.

Now about your obsession with (and unsolicited private message about) ALPA...

Abandon a lost cause? The only "lost cause" is the assumption that any money doug puts on the table would be better for the EAST than 93, your "ASSUMPTIONS" that we will have some type of miracle offer(look at the F/A's) is well moronic at best! When the EAST uses their attrition and upgrades it is far better off than sitting F/O for a WEST pilot hired 15years after them, FACTS are FACTS, KASHER or not, won't happen!

 

[Pi brat]

Not an obsession. Just an interest in airline merger precedents that can effect others, including me. Particularly the part about binding arbitration. That it's been explained to you many times, yet you still do claim to not understand only tells us that you are either dense, or refuse to accept an explanation that doesn't conform to your views. Which is it?

It's neither genius. I've accepted that you do , but I will never understand it. I Kinda like I accept that many people smoke crack, but don't understand why they ever start. Get it?

You are free to do what you want, but it was a response to your comments to swan.

 

[Pi brat]

That's interesting that you say that. If they have nothing left to lose, then what is the value of their sacrifice?

If I had to explain it, you still wouldn't understand. Just ignore it!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

You're not getting it. If they burn the house down, there is no attrition. So again, what is the value of their sacrifice?

The point is, regardless of what they say, they do have something to lose, or they would have pulled the trigger long ago. They aren't out for the new-hire or the furloughee or the senior pilot - they are out for themselves and once they have sated that appetite, they will likely put on even less pretense of caring for anyone else, because they can't use them for anything else. Once the Angry F/O's get your vote, they will likely forget your name. Once they upgrade, they will find that it's high time they got a better contract. Once they see a few bucks in their pockets, all their safety concerns willl fade into a bad dream.

If a USAPA supporter is speaking to you, you can be assured they are lying (even if only to themselves).

YOUR NOT GETTING IT, average age 59, what do normal people do at 59? They say hey can't wait till I retire, PBGC, ETC, ETC, Hey moron , WE DID PULL THE TRIGGER, WE SAID, NO, NO, NOWAY! Your hub is a flub, in the next joint cba, PHX will close! Keep your attrition, it's called "seen IT all before" ! MM!