US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

I just looked at the attrition numbers. Boys and girls you had better go back and do some calculating. Your stand alone attrition compared to combined attrition using the Nicolau is a flat joke. I about fell out of my chair when I say what the numbers are and what you guys think you are getting and what you are really giving up. After seeing these numbers I am more convinced than ever that you east guys have been sold a bill of goods or don't know how to do simple math.

Over the next 10 years using the Nicolau award combined attrition costs the east somewhere between 20 and 30 upgrades per year. That is it 20-30. Every one of you east guys is giving up about $35,000.00 per year because 20-30 east F/O's would have to wait an additional max of 2 years. That is it. So much for your all mighty valuable attrition.

Pull your heads out and figure it out. I think your heads have been up your tailpipes for so long that the O2 has been cut off to your brains. Before you start screaming that can't be right. Clear's a liar. Blah, blah, blah. Put the numbers up and prove me wrong.

I will give you a hint to get you started. Nicolau ratioed the list 2/3 east 1/3 west. So every 3 upgrades the east gets 2. Every 300 upgrades the east gets 200. Show your work. Figure out what your temper tantrum is really costing you. Captains take a look at the whiny schoolgirl next to you. He has cost you 5 years so far. How much longer are you going to let him cost you money just so he can have your seat?

20-30 fo's per year difference between separate ops and combined ops using the Nicolau.

You know what? With words like yours, I can't believe we don't get along better.

Your numberit may be correct, don't know off the top of my head and not really interested in looking them over. But, what about the rest? How many of us captains will sit on reserve and enjoy Feb vacation while your F/os that have never been a captain come in on top of us? How many won't get the A330?

Looking forward to your answers and the revolution roadmap. Want to recognize it when I see it.
,

 

[cleardirect]

You know what? With words like yours, I can't believe we don't get along better.

Your numberit may be correct, don't know off the top of my head and not really interested in looking them over. But, what about the rest? How many of us captains will sit on reserve and enjoy Feb vacation while your F/os that have never been a captain come in on top of us? How many won't get the A330?

Looking forward to your answers and the revolution roadmap. Want to recognize it when I see it.
,

How many of you are getting Feb vacations now? How many fo would never become capts. separate ops? How many of you were never going to become 330 capts separate ops or without the merger? At he time of the merger you guys had how many 330's? 9-10? So all of maybe 100-125 of you were ever going to be 330 capts. Stop the crying.

 

[Pi brat]

How many of you are getting Feb vacations now? How many fo would never become capts. separate ops? How many of you were never going to become 330 capts separate ops or without the merger? At he time of the merger you guys had how many 330's? 9-10? So all of maybe 100-125 of you were ever going to be 330 capts. Stop the crying.

A whole lot more than you!

That's funny, chief whinny westie telling someone not to cry! No crying, you looking for your expert opinion.

 

[cleardirect]

A whole lot more than you!

That's funny, chief whinny westie telling someone not to cry! No crying, you looking for your expert opinion.

Another non-answer. Come to expect nothing less from you.

Would that be a whole lot more fo that would never have upgraded without the merger?
Would that be a whole lot more of you that only get Feb vacation?
Maybe you meant you had a whole lot more furloughed pilot at the merger?

 

[Pi brat]

Another non-answer. Come to expect nothing less from you.u

Would that be a whole lot more fo that would never have upgraded without the merger?
Would that be a whole lot more of you that only get Feb vacation?
Maybe you meant you had a whole lot more furloughed pilot at the merger?

Hey, at least I replied, you usually know better than to even try. The A330. What age did you expect to get it at AWA?

 

[767one]

Elaborate.

Mike Cleary is not usapa. When he leaves someone else will take his place. A pilot can support usapa without supporting Mike Cleary if that is what he or she chooses.


Bob

 

[767one]

If you really only have 17 months you will retire on LOA 93. You got what you got you have no choice but to ride it out. No way we get a new contract in 17 months. DOH or Nicolau. Damn 10 years on a BK contract being the worst paid in the industry. ALPA got you there for 5 years and usapa will keep you there for 5 years.

Sounds like alpa and usapa are in a dead heat except if alpa were still here we would probably have signed another concessionary contract , more than likely in the middle of the night with no vote. Come to think of it we are still way ahead.


Bob

 

[end_of_alpa]

I just looked at the attrition numbers. Boys and girls you had better go back and do some calculating. Your stand alone attrition compared to combined attrition using the Nicolau is a flat joke. I about fell out of my chair when I say what the numbers are and what you guys think you are getting and what you are really giving up. After seeing these numbers I am more convinced than ever that you east guys have been sold a bill of goods or don't know how to do simple math.

Over the next 10 years using the Nicolau award combined attrition costs the east somewhere between 20 and 30 upgrades per year. That is it 20-30. Every one of you east guys is giving up about $35,000.00 per year because 20-30 east F/O's would have to wait an additional max of 2 years. That is it. So much for your all mighty valuable attrition.

Pull your heads out and figure it out. I think your heads have been up your tailpipes for so long that the O2 has been cut off to your brains. Before you start screaming that can't be right. Clear's a liar. Blah, blah, blah. Put the numbers up and prove me wrong.

I will give you a hint to get you started. Nicolau ratioed the list 2/3 east 1/3 west. So every 3 upgrades the east gets 2. Every 300 upgrades the east gets 200. Show your work. Figure out what your temper tantrum is really costing you. Captains take a look at the whiny schoolgirl next to you. He has cost you 5 years so far. How much longer are you going to let him cost you money just so he can have your seat?

20-30 fo's per year difference between separate ops and combined ops using the Nicolau.

I've done the math....a seven year guy would be upgrading to captian this month instead of me. Your junior guys would prevent my seniority from bidding my years of service....never been furloughed. That pilot on the nicolau award senior to me would get captain pay I was entitled to. My years of service mean....years of service. Old company...new company.....neither has any meaning. We compare ourselves with years of service.

Enjoy PHX for the next 10 years, sucker.

Good luck.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Parker said in the most recent meetings that "the Kirby Proposal" was still on the table. IF USAPA decided to honor the Nicolau award AND accept the Kirby Proposal it would mean a 3% increase for AWA pilots (NB would go from $142 to $146...give or take). East NB goes from $125 to $146 AND ADDITIONAL VACATION, 401K payments, full pay for DH, MX & cancellations.

I wouldn't vote for it, BUT the company said in the Addington trial that they were prepa to go higher. How high?

As we type the NAC is negotiations a WORSE contract than the KP!!

You parse words. He said the Kirby proposal was still on the table.

The rest is pure speculation. Jack Stephan gave HIS opinion that he thought they would go higher but that would depend on what the East/West negotiation could come up with. He made NO mention of hoeing the nicolau award. That is what the DJ is for. All that is woulda coulda shoulda.

Here is two uncontrovertible facts:

We won't have a contract until:

1. The court lawsuits finish and
2. We have a contract TO VOTE ON!

Let's talk about something else.....how's the heat wave out west?

Good luck.

 

[nycbusdriver]

No, I happen to know there is a fairly sizeable and growing contingent on the east preparing a card drive in cooperation with many west pilots, so I really can't lump ALL east pilots in the same category. Unfortunately, Kleary will not provide any opportunities for the east pilots to vote on substantive issues and reveal the true perspective of the east line pilots. He knows all too well that a vote would reveal how little support he has and would make further power grabs a little more difficult.

We've been hearing about this vaunted card drive for over two years now. Please. Put up or shut up about the damn cards.

 

[end_of_alpa]

We've been hearing about this vaunted card drive for over two years now. Please. Put up or shut up about the damn cards.

Second. The "so-called" card drive over here, I don't see it. The pilots here see USAPA as PILOTS and not separate from the rank and file. USAPA is run by line pilots, and if West pilots don't want to participate that is your choice. Some are, to be sure, and I welcome them for it. I just sent an e-mail to Del thanking him for his participation....much needed participation, BTW.

I hope you guys don't give him a blanket party.

Good Luck.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

I've done the math....a seven year guy would be upgrading to captian this month instead of me. Your junior guys would prevent my seniority from bidding my years of service....never been furloughed. That pilot on the nicolau award senior to me would get captain pay I was entitled to. My years of service mean....years of service. Old company...new company.....neither has any meaning. We compare ourselves with years of service.

Enjoy PHX for the next 10 years, sucker.

Good luck.

That's why I asked for the numbers, NOT THE NIC, "the stand alone numbers" E vs W attrition next 10 years, WEST BS! MM!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Another non-answer. Come to expect nothing less from you.

Would that be a whole lot more fo that would never have upgraded without the merger?
Would that be a whole lot more of you that only get Feb vacation?
Maybe you meant you had a whole lot more furloughed pilot at the merger?

Talk about NON-ANSWER!

 

[Black Swan]

We've been hearing about this vaunted card drive for over two years now. Please. Put up or shut up about the damn cards.

Exactly. McIlvenna got ALPA launched from the property with his hard headedness. Now they want us to come back in to clean up his mistakes at WYE RIVER. They had their chance, and they blew it. ALPA is gone forever here, except to pay the MDA guys when their time comes to exact their pound of flesh. Counting down the days until AIRTRAN leaves ALPA. That is a lot of money they are losing. Who is next to leave when the TWA bill comes home?

 

[ROACLT]

Exactly. McIlvenna got ALPA launched from the property with his hard headedness. Now they want us to come back in to clean up his mistakes at WYE RIVER. They had their chance, and they blew it. ALPA is gone forever here, except to pay the MDA guys when their time comes to exact their pound of flesh. Counting down the days until AIRTRAN leaves ALPA. That is a lot of money they are losing. Who is next to leave when the TWA bill comes home?

ALPA lost a 44 million dollar damage trial to a group of United pilots last year and agreed to settle. As large as that amount is, that is chump change to the 600 million the TWA pilots are asking for. I think the MDA pilots are seeking into the hundreds of millions as well.

WEBSITE UPDATE 11-12-09

ALPA SETTLES LAWSUIT WITH SENIOR UNITED PILOTS

During the United bankruptcy the United MEC reached an agreement with United, part of which was, that United would issue $550 million in notes to be distributed to active United pilots to compensate them, in part, for the loss of the “United Airlines Pilots Defined Benefit Pension Plan (A Plan).” The method of allocating the notes to the active pilots was left to the United MEC.

The MEC ultimately decided to allocate the notes to the active pilots based upon their expected vested A Plan benefit at age 60. The effect of this allocation was that junior pilots received more of the funds than if the allocation were based upon each pilot’s vested benefit at the time of the plan termination.

A group of senior active pilots filed a “Class Action Lawsuit” on behalf of the more senior pilots alleging that the MEC and the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) had violated their “Duty of Fair Representation (DFR)” by using this allocation method.

The lawsuit was heard in Federal District Court in Chicago. ALPA filed motions opposing discovery requests made by the attorneys representing the “Class” and ALPA also filed motions to have the class action suit dismissed. The judge ruled in favor of the class members in all of these actions.

ALPA has reached a settlement of $44 Million with the representatives of the class to settle the lawsuit. This is the largest dollar amount of any settlement made by ALPA in the history of the union. The settlement agreement contains standard language that neither party admits any wrong doing as part of the settlement.

This settlement will only apply to pilots who were active United pilots as of January 1, 2005. It will not apply to any pilot who was retired as of the January 1, 2005, date. The distribution formula is rather complex, but in general, the settlement funds will go to the more senior active pilots.

On another matter, the United Retired Pilots Benefit Protection Association (URPBPA) has not received any further update from the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation as to when they will be issuing the “Final Determination Letters” to retired United pilots.