US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Black Swan]

ALPA lost a 44 million dollar damage trial to a group of United pilots last year and agreed to settle. As large as that amount is, that is chump change to the 600 million the TWA pilots are asking for. I think the MDA pilots are seeking into the hundreds of millions as well.

WEBSITE UPDATE 11-12-09

ALPA SETTLES LAWSUIT WITH SENIOR UNITED PILOTS

During the United bankruptcy the United MEC reached an agreement with United, part of which was, that United would issue $550 million in notes to be distributed to active United pilots to compensate them, in part, for the loss of the “United Airlines Pilots Defined Benefit Pension Plan (A Plan).” The method of allocating the notes to the active pilots was left to the United MEC.

The MEC ultimately decided to allocate the notes to the active pilots based upon their expected vested A Plan benefit at age 60. The effect of this allocation was that junior pilots received more of the funds than if the allocation were based upon each pilot’s vested benefit at the time of the plan termination.

A group of senior active pilots filed a “Class Action Lawsuit” on behalf of the more senior pilots alleging that the MEC and the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) had violated their “Duty of Fair Representation (DFR)” by using this allocation method.

The lawsuit was heard in Federal District Court in Chicago. ALPA filed motions opposing discovery requests made by the attorneys representing the “Class” and ALPA also filed motions to have the class action suit dismissed. The judge ruled in favor of the class members in all of these actions.

ALPA has reached a settlement of $44 Million with the representatives of the class to settle the lawsuit. This is the largest dollar amount of any settlement made by ALPA in the history of the union. The settlement agreement contains standard language that neither party admits any wrong doing as part of the settlement.

This settlement will only apply to pilots who were active United pilots as of January 1, 2005. It will not apply to any pilot who was retired as of the January 1, 2005, date. The distribution formula is rather complex, but in general, the settlement funds will go to the more senior active pilots.

On another matter, the United Retired Pilots Benefit Protection Association (URPBPA) has not received any further update from the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation as to when they will be issuing the “Final Determination Letters” to retired United pilots.

Interesting article. ALPA has strayed all over the map with seniority integrations, starting with the monkeying by the UAL pilots who sought to machinate the best out outcome for THEMSELVES. Now we have huge problems, and DFR after DFR they are involved with. DOH is the gold standard, and works. Every other group at LCC went DOH, and there are no problems. The ALPA deal? An ABORTION. The Assn of Flight Attendants puts ALPA to shame.

 

[luvthe9]

Interesting article. ALPA has strayed all over the map with seniority integrations, starting with the monkeying by the UAL pilots who sought to machinate the best out outcome for THEMSELVES. .

You hit the nail on the head, any senority issues are the result of our friends over at UAL. Of course except for our own "Jetz" 😀

 

[3dtv]

146 in 2011 likely to last 5 years or more ensures the lowest industry pay by 25%.

Forget it.

 

[CallawayGolf]

You hit the nail on the head, any senority issues are the result of our friends over at UAL. Of course except for our own "Jetz" 😀

Can't you guys take personal responsibility for anything? It's UAL's fault; it's ALPA's fault; it's AOL's fault; it's Wake's fault; it's Parker's fault; it's Nicolau's fault; it's Glass' fault. Am I missing anyone in your blame fest?

You personally joined AAA of your own volition and knowingly became a member of ALPA because that was a condition of employment. ALPA was your legally-elected CBA and they had full rights to represent you according to their policy within the DFR framework. At the time of the merger the ALPA policy was in effect and the east MEC additionally agreed to the Transition Agreement which reaffirmed the ALPA SLI process and forever linked you personally and collectively to the results of binding arbitration for the SLI. The process followed the policy that the east pilot group agreed to by way of your legally-elected CBA. The time to fix the SLI policy or replace the CBA that represents you is before you become legally bound by decisions made by your representative agent, not afterward when it's too late. Seriously, take some personal and collective responsibility and accept that it's your fault that changes weren't made before the consequences became binding. As the saying goes, closing the barn door after the horses have fled is too little too late.

 

[CallawayGolf]

146 in 2011 likely to last 5 years or more ensures the lowest industry pay by 25%.

Forget it.

In other words, "$146 isn't good enough so I would prefer to stay on the $125 that I've been on for six years and continue for another 3-5 years or more." At a minimum you could have had the $146 back in 2007 but have taken the lower-paid option with no end in sight. You east pilots sure have an absolutely brilliant and shrewd financial prowess not to be comprehended by mere mortals. 😱

 

[767jetz]

ALPA has strayed all over the map with seniority integrations, starting with the monkeying by the UAL pilots...

any senority issues are the result of our friends over at UAL.

You guys sure are consistent with your blame game. Ever notice how EVERYTHING you hate most about your career is the fault of the United pilots. Then you wonder why a UA pilot has any interest in what's being said on this forum.

So now we have the two most recently notorious poster, sending inflammatory PM's and grandiose, unsubstantiated claims, while patting each other on the back for being such masters of the "truth." Yet neither of you can come up with valid responses when proven wrong or when your so called facts are questioned. Just name calling and insults... the sign of a beaten opponent.

Just because you read something on a wailing wall or bathroom stall, or hear it repeated ad nauseam in the cockpit doesn't make it accurate. So once and for all, show us all exactly where UA pilots were responsible for removing DOH from ALPA's merger policy. Should be easy enough since you always bring it up. Tell us when, the process that occurred, who voted for what, and how the result came to be.

Or could it be that a democratic process occurred, majority ruled (a concept you only seem to understand and support when YOU are the majority), and the outcome was something you now find unfair due to your personal situation and want to avoid? Show us the facts. How many years did you live with the new merger policy without so much as an attempt to influence it, or a peep from any of you as to how "unfair" it is. Could it be that you really have no idea how it came to be, but are too embarrassed to admit it? Let's see how honest you can be. I already know the real answer. Why not show the rest of the community here how much you REALLY know.

And btw, ALPA never killed DOH or prevented it from being used. It was taken out as the sole criteria so that each merger would turn on it's own merit. The fact that not one pilot SLI in recent history has used DOH, and now federal law mirrors ALPA merger policy with the Mc Caskill bill, is a testament to it's validity.

But have at it, and prove me wrong.

 

[cleardirect]

I've done the math....a seven year guy would be upgrading to captian this month instead of me. Your junior guys would prevent my seniority from bidding my years of service....never been furloughed. That pilot on the nicolau award senior to me would get captain pay I was entitled to. My years of service mean....years of service. Old company...new company.....neither has any meaning. We compare ourselves with years of service.

Enjoy PHX for the next 10 years, sucker.

Good luck.

Every merger for the last 20 years proves you wrong. You east pilots may compare yourselves by years of service but the rest of the industry does not.

BTW if you think you compare yourself by LOS why is usapa demanding DOH? Stealing even more than what you think you deserve.

 

[767jetz]

You east pilots sure have an absolutely brilliant and shrewd financial prowess not to be comprehended by mere mortals. 😱

That's a fact. Just ask Black Swan about his theories on mortgages, the housing market, and how it has a bearing on retirement plans. Especially for the poor fools living in PHX.

 

[767jetz]

Can't you guys take personal responsibility for anything? It's UAL's fault; it's ALPA's fault; it's AOL's fault; it's Wake's fault; it's Parker's fault; it's Nicolau's fault; it's Glass' fault. Am I missing anyone in your blame fest?

Dont' forget Obama, Bush 1&2, a pilot called CM, Delta, American, me, and the drug running AWA pilots. 😉

 

[cleardirect]

Second. The "so-called" card drive over here, I don't see it. The pilots here see USAPA as PILOTS and not separate from the rank and file. USAPA is run by line pilots, and if West pilots don't want to participate that is your choice. Some are, to be sure, and I welcome them for it. I just sent an e-mail to Del thanking him for his participation....much needed participation, BTW.

I hope you guys don't give him a blanket party.

Good Luck.

Do you really believe that the line pilots run usapa? If so you are a fool.

Did you read the PHX update one man one vote? Take a look.

Did the line pilots get to vote on the law suit before Cleary filed against the company? Did the BPR get to vote on the law suit? How much input did the line pilots have for the new NAC members? Did you ever see an update even telling the line pilots there was an opening? No Cleary decided on his own.

Do you know how many west committees members have been removed because Cleary does not want west participation. When was the last time you got to vote on anything but an election?

 

[767jetz]

EOA, you asked the question:

I'm coming in late to the party...what does houses have to do with all of this first of all and secondly.....your list with the continental pilots isn't even close. So what do you think the effect will be on your seniority with the continental pilots if USAPA prevails?

I answered:

#1) Ask your buddy Black Swan. He started that conversation. I just finished it.

#2) If USAPA prevails, AND DOH is used as a precedent in the UA/CO merger, then the effect on MY seniority will be that I would go from a 757/767 f/o to a line holding 737 captain or even a junior 757 captain as seats become available. You guys talk about attrition. Between Co and UA, we will retire about 800 pilots per year, almost exclusively from the left seat and about 2/3 from widebody left seats, continuing for at least a decade. Additionally, if USAPA prevails, then anyone who is unhappy with the integration could potentially walk away from binding arbitration through a card drive and send us into a civil war much like your own for years to come, with the only winners being management and the lawyers.

So applying USAPA's methods would benefit me greatly. But it still doesn't make it right, ethical, or fair IMO. I am starting to believe that we will have our Joint Contract and SLI long before your battle is resolved. So it may have no effect in the end.

What, no response? YOU asked the question. Are you joining your buddies Swan and Luv in ignoring answers and rebuttals that do not reflect your pre-conceived view of the world?

 

[cleardirect]

That's why I asked for the numbers, NOT THE NIC, "the stand alone numbers" E vs W attrition next 10 years, WEST BS! MM!

You see mad man. I said before you call me names or call BS figure the number for yourself. I don't see any numbers in your post. If you think you know what they are post them or shut up. Come on angry FO. Post the numbers stand alone and post the numbers combined using the Nicolau ratio. Use the number to prove me wrong. Calling BS does not prove it. It only proves that you don't know what you are talking about and you don't know that facts.

You see you guys are so predictable.

Pull your heads out and figure it out. I think your heads have been up your tailpipes for so long that the O2 has been cut off to your brains. Before you start screaming that can't be right. Clear's a liar. Blah, blah, blah. Put the numbers up and prove me wrong.

 

[cactusboy53]

Sorry CB but my idea was W/B's at least $ 200/hr, less than that, dont waste my time. Our old vacation schedule, they can keep d/h and mx cancellations. It looks like I'll be sticking with that guy with 17 yrs.

P.S. I think $146/hr is an insult.

Mikey;
If you took time to read my post, I essentially said that the KP (company's opener - as far as I am concerned) was still on the table. I also said that I would not vote for it (I too consider it an INSULT).

I insinuated that if we as a group accepted the Nicolau as THE seniority list (as opposed to decades of legal battles, only to have the Nicolau award forced on you), we could staff our NAC committee with EXPERIENCED negotiators.

Here is a taste of what we should shoot for (these are Captain 12+ year rates):
American: NB= $161-$166; WB= $174-$205
Delta: NB= $168-$174; WB= $205-$217
Hawaiian: NB=$162; WB= $190
Southwest: NB=$198
Alaska: NB= $154
Alegiant: NB=$153
Spirit: NB=$152
JetBlue: NB=$159 Embraer: $143 (source is http://www.willflyforfood.com/airline-pilot-salary/)

Here's the rub: If we vote to change the USAPA constitution to show the Nicolau award as the basis of seniortiy for the New US Airways, then we can move on. If you were to argue that all we need to do is negotiate away from the Nicolau.....No Can Do. There is no group, person or entitiy that has the authority, right or inclination to do that task.

Do you wait and see if Kasher brings you the cash? Do you keep letting Cleary overspend our union budget without ANY KIND OF RESTRAINT? Do you keep letting the junior, inexperienced minority hold our group hostage?

Our NAC is presently NEGOTIATING AWAY (the wrong direction, in case you weren't keeping up) from a current offer (albiet one that includes the Nicolau as the seniority list).

If you have come to the conclusion that the Nicolau will be the seniority list, and USAPA is only buying delay (with you union dues).....visit us at www.reformusapa.com.

There are three petitions that you should read. Two of which you should have NO trouble signing and sending in (even if you haven't come to the conclusion that the Nicolau award will be the final seniority list).

 

[luvthe9]

You personally joined AAA of your own volition and knowingly became a member of ALPA because that was a condition of employment. ALPA was your legally-elected CBA and they had full rights to represent you according to their policy within the DFR framework.

That was over 30 yrs ago when DOH was the gold standard, the problem lies when UAL wanted to chage that for thier benefit. You might have been in grade school when all this was going on I don't know.

 

[luvthe9]

Stock in a nose dive. http://investing.money.msn.com/investments/stock-price?Symbol=lcc&ocid=qbeb