US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

[quo
te name='CallawayGolf' timestamp='1311092318' post='815028']
So why is USAPA so afraid to let the process move to a TA and a vote? Every action they take seems to be predicated on delaying a court ruing on what list is required for section 22. This section, as everyone knows. is the single reason why there is no progress on the JCBA negotiations. If it all comes down to a vote and the east pilots are supremely confident that the TA will be voted down with a NIC, then just stop delaying. Stop filing MTD's, stop taking every action that is preventing a full, final and legal decision and get on with it.

The problem will not resolve itself because USAPA will not be reasoned with and their only hope is to delay as soon as possible. Their greatest fear is a vote on a NIC-inclusive TA that would show them to be the unmitigated failure that they are. You want it to all be about a vote so where is it? Four years and how many votes have there been? What a joke.
[/quote]

Again, pot meet kettle. Why did AOL appeal to the SCOTUS? To win! No stone left unturned, its a death match.

 

[luvn737s]

Every East pilot understands this and we stand our ground based on the ONLY principle USAPA came into existence for....to preserve for the rank and file a vote.

So why isn't USAPA working on section 6 for the west so THEY have something to vote for?

Obviously your delay tactics benefit you more than your vote will. Hence the DFR.

If your argument had even a shred of credibility, USAPA would abandon DOH and work diligently on an improved JCBA with Nicolau (who cares, right? You've got the votes, no doubt) and give you your precious vote. When it gets voted down, USAPA can try DOH (sure try anything if you dare) and if it passes, USAPA get hauled into court. If it doesn't, then you try something else.

You look ridiculous when you try to defend the patently indefensible.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Again, pot meet kettle. Why did AOL appeal to the SCOTUS? To win! No stone left unturned, its a death match.

There is a big difference between trying to get a full and final decision that all parties can act upon versus actions that serve no purpose or benefit to anyone other than to delay a final decision. USAPA is only interested in the latter, or so it would seem based on their penchant for filing court documents that only serve to slow the process down to a crawl. They certainly seem to fear an definitive answer unless it's all done just to fund $eham's offshore accounts.

 

[Pi brat]

There is a big difference between trying to get a full and final decision that all parties can act upon versus actions that serve no purpose or benefit to anyone other than to delay a final decision. USAPA is only interested in the latter, or so it would seem based on their penchant for filing court documents that only serve to slow the process down to a crawl. They certainly seem to fear an definitive answer unless it's all done just to fund $eham's offshore accounts.

No, it's really not. To WIN, at any cost, that's the goal. You just feel your POV is justified and the other isn't.

 

[cleardirect]

The wheels must really be coming off the usapa little red wagon. Now it is the companies fault that support for usapa is failing.

Even usapa is admitting it in court filings.

Well I guess if usapa would accomplish something they could point to more east pilots would be "on board". Instead more and more east pilot are getting off the usapa train of failure.

 

[CallawayGolf]

No, it's really not. To WIN, at any cost, that's the goal. You just feel your POV is justified and the other isn't.

If you define WIN as delaying the NIC until you retire, then I would agree with you.

However, if you define win as proving legally in court and also via a ratified TA/JCBA that Bradford, $eham, and Cleary were right about discarding the NIC, then I would disagree that delay=WIN. Ripeness, all of the MTD's, not wanting to import the Addington documents too the DJ and a host of other USAPA/$eham actions clearly show that delay is the goal.

So is that your goal also or do you actually want more than LOA93 and concessionary work rules for the remainder of your career?

 

[fatherabraham]

[
See Story
[/quote]

unbiased fact #3:

CM and his ilk are cowardly backstabbing morons.

FA

 

[traderjake]

The wheels must really be coming off the usapa little red wagon. Now it is the companies fault that support for usapa is failing.

Even usapa is admitting it in court filings.

Well I guess if usapa would accomplish something they could point to more east pilots would be "on board". Instead more and more east pilot are getting off the usapa train of failure.

84. Defendants’ unilateral refusal to employ past practices to resolve grievances as well
as their intentional dilatory conduct in scheduling and completing arbitrations have deterred pilots
from filing grievances and rendered the grievance and arbitration process unavailing as a means of
addressing disputes.

85. Upon information and belief, defendants have deliberately abandoned the use of the
dispute resolution mechanisms described above to cause pilots to lose confidence in their bargaining
representatives and to interfere with, influence, and coerce pilots in their choice of bargaining
representatives.

 

[nevergiveup]

So why isn't USAPA working on section 6 for the west so THEY have something to vote for?

Obviously your delay tactics benefit you more than your vote will. Hence the DFR.

If your argument had even a shred of credibility, USAPA would abandon DOH and work diligently on an improved JCBA with Nicolau (who cares, right? You've got the votes, no doubt) and give you your precious vote. When it gets voted down, USAPA can try DOH (sure try anything if you dare) and if it passes, USAPA get hauled into court. If it doesn't, then you try something else.

You look ridiculous when you try to defend the patently indefensible.

If the west wanted a contract, they would give up on the Nic so all could gain and we could stay out of court. Make east and west each a wholly owned.

 

[Elevation]

If the west wanted a contract, they would give up on the Nic so all could gain and we could stay out of court. Make east and west each a wholly owned.

1. There is no west representation any more, they cannot give up or negotiate for themselves. USAPA is THE UNION for the west. Why is this so hard to understand?

2. Separate wholly owned? Scope.

Do you guys have random ideas you bring out without even thinking?

 

[cleardirect]

If the west wanted a contract, they would give up on the Nic so all could gain and we could stay out of court. Make east and west each a wholly owned.

How about this. Since it was the east that went to the NMB and demanded and got single career status so you could vote in usapa to accomplish nothing. You east guys go to the NMB and you demand that they split as into 2 separate pilot groups. You stay with usapa and the west can decide if we want to stay with usapa as a separate structure or find a different union.

If you want separate ops let's have separate ops. We will keep our dues money and you guys can survive on what you have. We can go to separate section 6 and we will see who can get a contract and who we stay where they are. We will enforce our own contract and see just who the problem is. Is it the company or the usapa grievance chair?

How about instead of bit%^ing about it do something. This is your union right? Demand that your union split us up into separate pilots groups from the NMB. The union does listen to you right.

 

[nevergiveup]

1. There is no west representation any more, they cannot give up or negotiate for themselves. USAPA is THE UNION for the west. Why is this so hard to understand?

2. Separate wholly owned? Scope.

Do you guys have random ideas you bring out without even thinking?

You're right. I guess it will stay status quo for a long time. Works for me!

 

[767jetz]

It is what it is, YOU ARE WRONG AND YOU'RE opinion means....JACK SH!T!

Now, go back and play with your toys and MYOB!

You are entitled to your opinion, angry desperate man. That is ALL you are entitled to.

We'll see who is right and who is wrong, won't we? Sorry... you can cry and stomp your feet all you want. Throw a tantrum. I don't care. I'm not going away. Your attempt to eff with binding arbitration certainly can effect me, so it IS my business, whether you like it or not. It really burns your ass that you control exactly nothing. Least of all who can voice an opinion on this matter. That much is obvious to even the casual observer. And the more you throw bad language, insults, and threats around, the less credibility you have.

And by the way, the only thing you can vote on is delay. You will never vote yourself out of binding arbitration. And if USAPA loses the DJ, or DFR II, you will see how far the courts will shove your vote and your DOH quest up your "six."

 

[767jetz]

How about slinging gear for one hired 17 years after you.....or even 7 years after you !!!!!
It ain't the stripe moron it's the cash!!!
You keep dodging the issue..........weigh in on the HUGH difference in your merger and OURS
not just yours!!!!

NICDOA
NPJB

I thought I answered this already.

IMO, YOS and DOH do not make a bit of difference on who slings gear for whom, once a merger happens and a neutral third party decides what you end up with. I don't look at things from the perspective of what others have and what I covet. I see things as what I have now. If you were furloughed and not slinging anyone's gear, that is where you should remain. If you were slinging gear in the right seat of the smallest, lowest paying fleet you have and doing so on reserve, that that is where you should be, regardless of the guy to your left.

Clear enough? That is my opinion. Nic got it right and explained very clearly how he came to his conclusions. Opinions mean nothing. The rule of law will eventually prevail. If it works our differently than I expect or hope, I'll be the first to admit that my opinion was off. How about you?

 

[nevergiveup]

I thought I answered this already.

IMO, YOS and DOH do not make a bit of difference on who slings gear for whom, once a merger happens and a neutral third party decides what you end up with. I don't look at things from the perspective of what others have and what I covet. I see things as what I have now. If you were furloughed and not slinging anyone's gear, that is where you should remain. If you were slinging gear in the right seat of the smallest, lowest paying fleet you have and doing so on reserve, that that is where you should be, regardless of the guy to your left.

Clear enough? That is my opinion. Nic got it right and explained very clearly how he came to his conclusions. Opinions mean nothing. The rule of law will eventually prevail. If it works our differently than I expect or hope, I'll be the first to admit that my opinion was off. How about you?

So, should years of service for a company mean anything? Should DOH mean anything? Should paying the ultimate dues for your fellow pilots mean anything? (being furloughed) ALPA should have had a policy other than...well...these things will be considered. Does one earn seniority or is it simply given to him as in this case? I say one should earn it, but that's just my old gray haired opinion.