US Pilots Labor Discussion

[767jetz]

I would imagine many of the west pilots are loaded up on housing debt, and are seriously underwater. Thus the quest for the Nic and a contract NOW. This explains a lot of the desperation and taunting of LOA 93. It is driven by your situation with your housing.

FINALY we are getting somewhere! I told you since the beginning of this discussion that you needed to clarify your assumptions. Now I can understand your reasoning, and also point out that your premise may or may not be correct.

IF west pilots are loaded up on debt, and IF they are underwater, and IF they are facing ballooning payments due to the risky "no money down" interest only or bait-and-switch adjustable mortgages, then THAT could be one explanation for their desire to complete the integration, and have a Nic inclusive contract. Do you have any proof or reason to believe that west pilots fall into the general category of the "average" PHX home owner? You MUST realize that it is only one of many theories, and happens to be one that fits your view of the world. I can think of at least 4 or 5 equally plausible reasons right off the top of my head that explains why the west wants a nic inclusive contract sooner rather than later, that has absolutely nothing to do with housing prices in PHX or the price of tea in China.

Additionally, let's compare the two things in question here... LOA93 and PHX housing.

LOA93 is a fact of life. It is not speculation of a future event. It exists each and every day for the east. It is a tangible number. First all you have to do is multiply the hours you fly by the difference between your pay rate and the west for starters, assuming pay parity. Then you could also speculate a reasonable increase above that to represent an industry average contract. You then have the number of dollars and cents each and every east pilot has forgone and continues to forgo each and every day. That is real actual, undisputed fact.

PHX housing problems only will effect a west pilot at some possible future point that they are forced to sell their property. Many many variables that are undetermined. How many years until retirement? What wil the housing market look like in 15 years? 20 years? 25 years? what do past trends along those time lines tell us? Maybe they just won't sell, and stay put in order to not realize the paper loss. It is impossible for you or anyone else to speculate the amount of pain and suffering the PHX housing market will generate at some theoretical future time.

So comparing your current factual, industry bottom pay, benefits, and work rules, to some future pain and suffering in the PHX housing market is comparing apples to oranges. Your pain (or need to adjust lifestyle, pain may not be the best description) is here and now, and will continue. Theirs may or may not ever materialize. Who is worse off?

You may still want to come up with a backup slight against the west.

Here's an idea... let's just ask the west pilots out there? Any west pilots who live in or near PHX... are any of you underwater, facing unmanageable mortgage increases, worried about your house being foreclosed on, or affecting your ability to retire any time soon? Is it creating pressure for you to accept DOH so you can get a raise? Are you feeling the pain day to day with your finances or budget do to your current home value? Anyone? Serious questions.


as a side observation, this reminds me so much of the west saving east argument. The East was ACTUALLY bankrupt with no financing to emerge stand alone, and days from missing payroll and CH7 liquidation. Fact. Game over. Not in dispute. The west was somewhat profitable, paid back their ATSB loan, hiring, and had rough seas ahead, with a CEO who claimed after the fact that they would be in trouble at some unknown future date... maybe... based on unknown variables like maybe a competitor liquidating. Once again a apples and oranges comparison. We are gone -vs- we might be gone someday, maybe. Am I the only one who sees the similarities to Swan's LOA93 - vs - PHX housing decline argument?

 

[767jetz]

All I can tell you is I have more friends in low places then you have friends in high.

Sounds like a threat to me. I wouldn't brag s much about your friends in low places. It doesn't surprise me tough guy.

Ask an intelligent question and I'll give you an intelligent response....

No you won't. You've already proven that time and time again.

Until then, tell your United buddies at ALPA "goodbye from us"!

I will. And tell your USAPA AFO buddies "good riddance!"

 

[end_of_alpa]

You are entitled to your opinion, angry desperate man. That is ALL you are entitled to.

We'll see who is right and who is wrong, won't we? Sorry... you can cry and stomp your feet all you want. Throw a tantrum. I don't care. I'm not going away. Your attempt to eff with binding arbitration certainly can effect me, so it IS my business, whether you like it or not. It really burns your ass that you control exactly nothing. Least of all who can voice an opinion on this matter. That much is obvious to even the casual observer. And the more you throw bad language, insults, and threats around, the less credibility you have.

And by the way, the only thing you can vote on is delay. You will never vote yourself out of binding arbitration. And if USAPA loses the DJ, or DFR II, you will see how far the courts will shove your vote and your DOH quest up your "six."

Ive got more say than you. Oh, FYI East pilots don't give a rats ass about you. Yes you heard me, we pay no attention to you and your United buddies cause you'll get yours in the END (pun intended). I'm glad it affects you. It doesn't sound to me that your United buddies agree with you, however. No, I don't live in a vacuum and I know several of them. Unfortunately they don't see it your way.

Regardless, I'll agree with you on this: I believe it already has affected you and for the worst but it's not us it's ALPA and that's a sad fact.

Tantrum? I can wait. How about you?

The only true credibility I need is the lawsuit....and the case law is on our side.

 

[767jetz]

So, should years of service for a company mean anything? Should DOH mean anything? Should paying the ultimate dues for your fellow pilots mean anything? (being furloughed) ALPA should have had a policy other than...well...these things will be considered. Does one earn seniority or is it simply given to him as in this case? I say one should earn it, but that's just my old gray haired opinion.

The problem is we don't have a national seniority list. We are not electricians or plumbers. We can't take our experience or YOS to any other airline. Just like you can't take your DOH and go to Delta and say "I want to live in Atlanta. You earn what you earn at YOUR airline. That currency means nothing once you move across the boarder. It is what it is. So when a merger happens, you have no choice but look at the circumstances of each merger and come to some conclusions. Hence the neutral third party. Hence and arbitrator. You can't decide to have a do over once you get there. The only way to achieve that is to have a pre-nup. If xyz doesn't happen, then the merger is off. Something like that. Not a possibility for US when the doors were days away from closing.

You do earn your seniority. In your case you "earned" a furloughed position if you had less than 17 years. You "earned" a junior reserve position on the lowest paid equipment if you had 18 years. etc. Too many of your brothers and sisters look over their shoulder and want compare what other's have, instead of looking at what they have. Yes, I know... there's the attrition. The east did not give Nicolau any options or opinions on the matter, so he came up with 2/3 as his compromise. It's a pretty accurate number considering the facts.

 

[767jetz]

The only true credibility I need is the lawsuit....and the case law is on our side.

I guess we will agree to disagree on that one. Like I said, I'll be the first to admit I was wrong if you end up with something other than Nic (or VERY VERY close to Nic). How about you? Will you be man enough to admit you were wrong if it doesn't go your way?

 

[cleardirect]

Ive got more say than you. Oh, FYI East pilots don't give a rats ass about you. Yes you heard me, we pay no attention to you and your United buddies cause you'll get yours in the END (pun intended). I'm glad it affects you. It doesn't sound to me that your United buddies agree with you, however. No, I don't live in a vacuum and I know several of them. Unfortunately they don't see it your way.

Regardless, I'll agree with you on this: I believe it already has affected you and for the worst but it's not us it's ALPA and that's a sad fact.

Tantrum? I can wait. How about you?

The only true credibility I need is the lawsuit....and the case law is on our side.

Can you speak for ALL east pilots or only yourself? Have you taken away their vote on what to think?

I thought you said the ninth settled all of this with their ruling. How is it that you now still need a lawsuit? If case law was on your side we would not be in Silvers court. But we are. Guess that makes you wrong. If you had case law on your side usapa would be pushing for an expedited trial instead of delaying at all cost. Guess that makes you wrong again.

 

[luvn737s]

It is all interrelated Clear. See, you constantly imply we are sliding into poverty with LOA 93 wages, and my counter is this- you are most likely sliding faster into financial ruin owning property in PHX. I would imagine many of the west pilots are loaded up on housing debt, and are seriously underwater. Thus the quest for the Nic and a contract NOW. This explains a lot of the desperation and taunting of LOA 93. It is driven by your situation with your housing.

Hmm, my house was worth twice what I paid for it, now it's only worth 60% more. But since my mortgage is the only debt I have, it doesn't hurt too bad.

Keep trying, just like T-ball. 😀

 

[luvn737s]

So, should years of service for a company mean anything? Should DOH mean anything? Should paying the ultimate dues for your fellow pilots mean anything? (being furloughed) ALPA should have had a policy other than...well...these things will be considered. Does one earn seniority or is it simply given to him as in this case? I say one should earn it, but that's just my old gray haired opinion.

All those years and you still don't get it. That's the way things go in the airline business. No, years do not mean anything. DOH means something until a merger. And it's pretty pretentious to think that you are paying a sacrifice for fellow pilots by being furloughed. You had no choice. You didn't volunteer to be furloughed so that someone else wouldn't. You got a letter, then cleaned out your mailbox, it's just that simple. If you are junior, you get furloughed. If you are senior, you don't. And that applies to each airline pre-merger airline, and likewise it should apply afterwards.

If you're lucky enough to get recalled, you should be appreciative because oftentimes you don't.

 

[john john]

Hmm, my house was worth twice what I paid for it, now it's only worth 60% more. But since my mortgage is the only debt I have, it doesn't hurt too bad.

Keep trying, just like T-ball. 😀

In bean town
Until you want to sell or get a line of credit

 

[luvn737s]

In bean town
Until you want to sell or get a line of credit

Nope, Phoenix. What's a Line of Credit? :huh:

 

[nevergiveup]

All those years and you still don't get it. That's the way things go in the airline business. No, years do not mean anything. DOH means something until a merger. And it's pretty pretentious to think that you are paying a sacrifice for fellow pilots by being furloughed. You had no choice. You didn't volunteer to be furloughed so that someone else wouldn't. You got a letter, then cleaned out your mailbox, it's just that simple. If you are senior, you get furloughed. If you are senior, you don't. And that applies to each airline pre-merger airline, and likewise it should apply afterwards.

If you're lucky enough to get recalled, you should be appreciative because oftentimes you don't.

Proof reading suggested. Steady as she goes!

 

[767jetz]

Hmm, my house was worth twice what I paid for it, now it's only worth 60% more. But since my mortgage is the only debt I have, it doesn't hurt too bad.

Keep trying, just like T-ball. 😀

Exactly my point. The obvious is sometimes lost on Swan.

 

[luvn737s]

Proof reading suggested. Steady as she goes!

Lousy distractions when you're typing! Thanks for pointing it out. I'd hate to be misunderstood.

 

[ROACLT]

All those years and you still don't get it. That's the way things go in the airline business. No, years do not mean anything. DOH means something until a merger. And it's pretty pretentious to think that you are paying a sacrifice for fellow pilots by being furloughed. You had no choice. You didn't volunteer to be furloughed so that someone else wouldn't. You got a letter, then cleaned out your mailbox, it's just that simple. If you are senior, you get furloughed. If you are senior, you don't. And that applies to each airline pre-merger airline, and likewise it should apply afterwards.

If you're lucky enough to get recalled, you should be appreciative because oftentimes you don't.

Concessions come in many forms in the airline industry. Pay, Vacation, Retirement, Work Rules, and Scope Relief are some of them. Collectively, some may be held in higher regard and therefore modified individually at different amounts, or some none at all in a concessionary setting. Scope Relief could be argued as big a concession as any and therefore a collective sacrifice. So yes, it is collectively an economic choice that was made to grant scope relief in lieu of lets say an additional 20% in paycuts, it is a choice made by a group. If your contract possesses protections and they are relaxed, that is a choice. The amount and type of scope relief can cause or deepen the amount and length of furloughs. Regardless of the level or types of sacrifice, most made in the labor sense are made with the belief in a return on those sacrifices and future benefit be to the ones who made them.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Concessions come in many forms in the airline industry. Pay, Vacation, Retirement, Work Rules, and Scope Relief are some of them. Collectively, some may be held in higher regard and therefore modified individually at different amounts, or some none at all in a concessionary setting. Scope Relief could be argued as big a concession as any and therefore a collective sacrifice. So yes, it is collectively an economic choice that was made to grant scope relief in lieu of lets say an additional 20% in paycuts, it is a choice made by a group. If your contract possesses protections and they are relaxed, that is a choice. The amount and type of scope relief can cause or deepen the amount and length of furloughs. Regardless of the level or types of sacrifice, most made in the labor sense are made with the belief in a return on those sacrifices and future benefit be to the ones who made them.

The "Pot of Gold Standard at the end of the Rainbow"! MM!