US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

For pilots that tell anyone that will listen that you are the most experienced group in the world. For pilots that have supposedly been in the industry for 25-30 years you have a stunning lack of understanding of the process. I suggest that you educate yourself before posting further.





So arbitration can be used and the parties do not get to negotiate all of the sections of the contract. We have already agreed to and completed arbitration on section 22.

That's some convoluted logic. I see a key word, offer. Did the NMB offer the arbitration of section 22?

 

[CallawayGolf]

I just reread Mr. Isom's letters and I don't see where he addressed why Capt Wells was removed from the property by security. I have only heard conflicting accounts, with the favorable from USAPA or east posters and unfavorable from west posters.

So, you were not there. You actually do not know what happened, yet you chose to crucify Captain Wells anyway. How Roman.

" However, in this circumstance, there is no comparison between her alleged conduct and my spotless employment record."

That has to be one of the most arrogant things I have ever read on here. There is no comparison between the alleged misconduct of many west pilots that Nos spread around and my spotless career. So what? When does alleged get compared to actual.

I used to have a little respect for you. Oh well.........................

But the USAPA ad does say that she was removed by corporate security and threatened with arrest, does it not? Can we assume that this is true, or is USAPA lying about that "fact"? I don't know why, but I assume USAPA is telling the truth, at least in part, about her removal. So, while I wasn't there, I'm "supremely confident" that properly respectful and subordinate employees are not removed from company facilities in such a manner. In all of your years of faithful service have you ever seen a person who was being genuinely respectful of their superiors and genuinely desirous to resolve a dispute/misunderstanding in a calm, professional manner removed as the USAPA ad describes? I haven't ever seen this, anywhere. What I have seen multiple times, however, are occurrences where disrespectful, highly caustic, threatening and intimidating employees causing a scene in front of customers are removed in such a manner. So, if we assume USAPA was correct about how she left the property on the night in question, which is far more likely in your mind, that she was respectful, subordinate, and willing to resolve the issue or that she was demonstrating a degree of insubordination to the point where Management/Security was forced to take such action?

Now how is it arrogant to say that I have never been insubordinate to anyone I have ever worked for? Many years ago I did have one newly appointed manager who was so threatened by my offer to assist him in any way to aide in his transition to a job he never held before that he offered to "meet me in the parking lot" after work. I didn't respond to his lunatic rants about how he was more qualified than me to be in his new position and how he didn't need any help from me. Rather, I just moved on to a new job by the end of the week.

 

[john john]

You sure like to quit

 

[CallawayGolf]

You sure like to quit

If you are referring to the job I had when I was offered to meet my manager in the parking lot, I didn't quit over that incident. I was offered a better position in the same company by a manager who was very eager to have me join in his organization. He was aware of my reputation for accomplishing more results than my peers and he made sure I was offered a chance to thrive without the threat of violence.

 

[john john]

. On the few occasions I found myself working for someone who I didn't respect or trust, I made a quick departure so as to find someone I could trust and respect instead. By my way of thinking if you don't trust/respect your employer you should quit. Likewise, if you come to believe that your employer doesn't trust or respect you, you should also quit.

It seems like that is your answer to life just quit

 

[CallawayGolf]

It seems like that is your answer to life just quit

Better to quit than to be miserable or to work for someone you don't trust or respect.

Funny thing is, I can't think of a job I left since I was 19 where I didn't leave on good terms and in almost all cases if I went back to see if they wanted to hire me again, I'm pretty confident they would offer me a job. I've never missed a paycheck and have never been concerned that I would have no options of a job suddenly fell out from under my feet. So again, what's the benefit of plodding along at a job you hate?

 

[john john]

Better to quit than to be miserable or to work for someone you don't trust or respect.

Funny thing is, I can't think of a job I left since I was 19 where I didn't leave on good terms and in almost all cases if I went back to see if they wanted to hire me again, I'm pretty confident they would offer me a job. I've never missed a paycheck and have never been concerned that I would have no options of a job suddenly fell out from under my feet. So again, what's the benefit of plodding along at a job you hate?

I get what your are saying if you have a bad day,week,month,year
Just be a quitter

 

[mrbreeze]

But the USAPA ad does say that she was removed by corporate security and threatened with arrest, does it not? Can we assume that this is true, or is USAPA lying about that "fact"? I don't know why, but I assume USAPA is telling the truth, at least in part, about her removal. So, while I wasn't there, I'm "supremely confident" that properly respectful and subordinate employees are not removed from company facilities in such a manner. In all of your years of faithful service have you ever seen a person who was being genuinely respectful of their superiors and genuinely desirous to resolve a dispute/misunderstanding in a calm, professional manner removed as the USAPA ad describes? I haven't ever seen this, anywhere. What I have seen multiple times, however, are occurrences where disrespectful, highly caustic, threatening and intimidating employees causing a scene in front of customers are removed in such a manner. So, if we assume USAPA was correct about how she left the property on the night in question, which is far more likely in your mind, that she was respectful, subordinate, and willing to resolve the issue or that she was demonstrating a degree of insubordination to the point where Management/Security was forced to take such action?

Now how is it arrogant to say that I have never been insubordinate to anyone I have ever worked for? Many years ago I did have one newly appointed manager who was so threatened by my offer to assist him in any way to aide in his transition to a job he never held before that he offered to "meet me in the parking lot" after work. I didn't respond to his lunatic rants about how he was more qualified than me to be in his new position and how he didn't need any help from me. Rather, I just moved on to a new job by the end of the week.

Have you considered the fact that maybe, just maybe, we are in a real battle here in Philly with a group of CPs that have been pushing us for years to keep flying A/C that have mechanical problems and we have helped them out? Also, suddenly it has come to our attention that the INTL CP has been lying to the crews about FFA approval on ETOPS operations.

While we have carried the ball for these crooks over the years, making Philly the most profitable operation in the company, they have not only been lying to us, but have been paying us the lowest wages in the ndustry, while delaying negotiations thru the courts.

They have pushed us too far and we have drawn a line in the sand...or concrete today.

From your self description of your career reputation, Callaway, if you were an East pilot and experienced what is REALLY going on out here, you would have been right beside Cpt Wells, asking her if she needed anything, or was there anything you could help her with. But, no....being from the West, and having your prejudices, you preach the opposite. You happen to be wrong on this.

breeze

 

[cleardirect]

That's some convoluted logic. I see a key word, offer. Did the NMB offer the arbitration of section 22?

Do try and keep up. Here is the original statement.

View PostNo Land Green, on 25 July 2011 - 10:56 AM, said:
She can't interfere with Negotiations. I sincerely doubt she will, just as the Ninth did. EVERY section of the CBA is negotiable. Believe what you want.

I proved that this is an incorrect statement that not EVERY section of a contract is negotiable. That some sections of a contract can be arbitrated. Both pilot groups agreed to arbitration to settle seniority. yes it is an offer of arbitration. Just like we did not have to go to arbitration if both sides could have agreed.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Have you considered the fact that maybe, just maybe, we are in a real battle here in Philly with a group of CPs that have been pushing us for years to keep flying A/C that have mechanical problems and we have helped them out? Also, suddenly it has come to our attention that the INTL CP has been lying to the crews about FFA approval on ETOPS operations.

While we have carried the ball for these crooks over the years, making Philly the most profitable operation in the company, they have not only been lying to us, but have been paying us the lowest wages in the ndustry, while delaying negotiations thru the courts.

They have pushed us too far and we have drawn a line in the sand...or concrete today.

From your self description of your career reputation, Callaway, if you were an East pilot and experienced what is REALLY going on out here, you would have been right beside Cpt Wells, asking her if she needed anything, or was there anything you could help her with. But, no....being from the West, and having your prejudices, you preach the opposite. You happen to be wrong on this.

breeze

Why only in PHL? Isn't the same Management team over all operations? How come west pilots aren't seeing the same kind of safety concerns and pressures? It all boils down to the fact that no one who has not been sucked up into the vortex of USAPA's unscrupulous behavior believes a sinlge thing they claim. Even your post offers no proof of anything but rather mixes contract issue - all caused by USAPA itself - with concerns over safety. Do you not see how claiming Management are "crooks" for paying you the wages that were agreed to and voted on by the east pilots under LOA 93 completely erodes your claim that pilots are being asked to fly unsafe aircraft? There is absolutely nothing to be gained and everything to be lost if Management knowingly forces an unsafe plane to fly which is why it would defy all logic to think that this is going on, even in PHL. I GUARANTEE you that Doug, Scott, Robert, Ed, and Lyle do not want to stand up and say to employee or passenger families that they knew there were safety issue but that financial pressures forced them to risk lives. No way, no how would that ever happen. Isom's response buried any notion that US Airways operates in an unsafe manner. USAPA will eventually have to move on from this fools errand too as the company has all the correct facts on their side.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Why only in PHL? Isn't the same Management team over all operations?

No. We have different chief pilots assigned to PHL than you have in PHX. I thought you would have known that. Is that a shocker to you?

 

[CallawayGolf]

No. We have different chief pilots assigned to PHL than you have in PHX. I thought you would have known that. Is that a shocker to you?

Not a shock at all. But if you were to have some maverick CP(s) in PHL it would be easy to deal with their violations of company policy and penchant for putting lives at risk if only USAPA could be believed for anything they say. However, when you (USAPA) have a credibility problem, then no one believes you even when you are telling the truth. Nothing new, USAPA is nothing if not good at shooting themselves in the foot - which they do on a daily basis.

 

[mrbreeze]

Why only in PHL? Isn't the same Management team over all operations? How come west pilots aren't seeing the same kind of safety concerns and pressures? It all boils down to the fact that no one who has not been sucked up into the vortex of USAPA's unscrupulous behavior believes a sinlge thing they claim. Even your post offers no proof of anything but rather mixes contract issue - all caused by USAPA itself - with concerns over safety. Do you not see how claiming Management are "crooks" for paying you the wages that were agreed to and voted on by the east pilots under LOA 93 completely erodes your claim that pilots are being asked to fly unsafe aircraft? There is absolutely nothing to be gained and everything to be lost if Management knowingly forces an unsafe plane to fly which is why it would defy all logic to think that this is going on, even in PHL. I GUARANTEE you that Doug, Scott, Robert, Ed, and Lyle do not want to stand up and say to employee or passenger families that they knew there were safety issue but that financial pressures forced them to risk lives. No way, no how would that ever happen. Isom's response buried any notion that US Airways operates in an unsafe manner. USAPA will eventually have to move on from this fools errand too as the company has all the correct facts on their side.

Why only in Philly? I did not say the management team, but the CPs in PHL. They are pressured to keep things running on schedule and we haven't seen any resistance to Tempe on behalf of the PHL pilots via the CPs office since the merger. You can't imagine how many times the CPs names have been "updated" in the cockpit "comments", escape rope panels since the merger. I do have to say that the CLT CP did stand up to some point for the pilots when this witch hunt began.

You just don't get it......we have gone along with the status quo for the past few years, hoping things would eventually change for the better, for us all.....but they have deteriorated. When the pilots started writing up the legitamite discrepancies, the witch hunt began...led by the PHL CP. Not only did he cross a line with the sitch hunt, but he really crossed a line with the ETOPS lie. I believe tha CP, along with Lyle Hogg feel that they are walking a thin line when it comes to keeping the pilots inline. Just look at Lyle Hogg's statement about cameras being used in the crew rooms because of theft. We all can see that he is lying in the video......what are we gonna steal? tables, chairs, or trash cans out of the breifing rooms? Yarcko and Hogg are covering their asses for Tempe. Period!

As far as LOA93 and us accepting those wages.....just like Tempe thought the seniority issue and a new contract would have happened well before LOA93 became an issue, things have changed over the last few years. Yes, we are fed up with the delays.

Bottom line is this: if they are not going to treat us with respect, the same #### comes back to haunt you. We are tired of the BS and know from previous experience as to what a good relationship with management is....brother, this ain't it.

Now, as far as USAPA's involvement, I have seen nothing from those guys....this is all coming from old friends with whom I have known for 25 yrs, who are fed up. I disagree, Isom's letter was very weak, trying to handle the damage control. If you were an East pilot and INVOLVED, you would see it from a different light.

Either you are with us or against us......unfortunately, due to politics, you guys are looking at this wrong, which is what management wants.

breeze

 

[luvn737s]

I encourage the company to discharge any diisruptive employee and permanently replace them. USAPA will be proven to be a paper tiger.

Again.

 

[mrbreeze]

I encourage the company to discharge any diisruptive employee and permanently replace them. USAPA will be proven to be a paper tiger.

Again.

So, you are the CPT flying a flight across the Atlantic...you get to the A/C and find that there is a problem not only with the APU, but also with the Hot Battery Bus. Will you fly this airplane for a 9 hr flight over the Atlantic, considering all the ETOPS restirctions, and at night? Then when you refuse, and try to talk to the next crew about the problem, you are escorted off the airport by corporate security.

Should you be fired?