US Pilots Labor Discussion

[toganoflex]

Polls Open in Charlotte Tomorrow!
 

When our recall attempt against Steve Crimi ended we stated we would remind you of his union busting history when he inevitably ran for reelection.  We won’t go over all the details again of his acceptance of employment at Freedom in early 2003 against union directives as we did that very specifically last summer, but we will remind you of two important points.

First, when Crimi ran for CLT Vice Chairman two years ago he failed to disclose his association with Freedom.  In his 01Jul09 introductory letter as a candidate he gave us most of his life history…..except the part about his union busting activities.

Second, when his activities came to light last year during his failed run for USAPA EVP, he showed no remorse for his actions and arrogantly proclaimed that he went to Freedom to “spite” his union.  We found that statement by a sitting rep appalling.  In seven years Steve Crimi has learned nothing about being a true union pilot.

Current events now find all our line pilots, every one, being asked to be good union pilots...no matter what their personal politics. Lately some good union pilots may have placed their livelihoods in jeopardy by choosing not to spite their own union.

Many told us last year that they did not support our recall efforts because they did not want the stain of such an event on our fledgling union, even though they felt Crimi had not been forthright in his campaign the prior year.  They also stated they did not approve of Crimi’s union busting background now that it was known.  Now is the time to clean house and continue our battle with dependable and trustworthy Reps, not self serving union busters.

Now, with his candidacy, you must make a decision on whether Steve Crimi is fit for duty as your representative.  We have seen nothing to convince us that he is worthy of a second term, and will save those issues for another communication.  So many times in the past, the success and future of this pilot group has been determined by single individuals not worthy of our trust.  Please don’t let history repeat.

 

 Make sure you vote, and we encourage you to vote for anybody except Steve Crimi!

 

Fraternally,

 

Mark King

Doug Mowery

Compass Correction Coalition | Modify Your Subscription | Unsubscribe Now

 

[BoeingBoy]

So with that explanation, and you may be right, you seem to disagree with clear that USAPA cannot negotiate section 22.

In a sense, USAPA can't negotiate section 22 since it takes two sides to negotiate. The company doesn't want to do that without a court order freeing US of any legal liability. Whether they'll get it from Judge Silver (or whether they are told they are stuck with the Nic) remains to be seen.

However, that's not what you're saying, which is where the legal vs practical comes in. A judge (or judges) will eventually rule whether not using the Nic is legally a DFR violation if another intergration method is negotiated with the company and a contract ratified - myself, I think so but I majored in common sense and not law. That will answer the legal question. What I said was that IF USAPA actually comes up with an integration method that protects the Westies as well as Nic did there probably won't be a DFR suit filed (unless it's by Easties). No suit, no ruling on whether a DFR violation occurred. That's the practical.

So practically, it doesn't matter if not using the Nic is a DFR violation as long as no DFR suit is filed - without a suit neither East nor West will know for sure. Clear could be right - not using the Nic is legally a DFR offense - and I could be right that no DFR would be filed anyway.

Of course, all this is hypothetical. USAPA isn't going to give the Westies the same protection Nic did unless ordered to use the Nic by a court.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

Welcome back Jim. I agreed with you.

Let me try again as DOH is still bugging you. Res Jud has said everything the east does is about getting a DOH seniority list. I question that because the top 517(or what's left of them) will be in their same seniority position, Nic or USAPA proposal. Is that better?

I'm not home yet - still on vacation in the land of the midnight sun.

Use of imprecise language is what bugs me. As I said before, every pilot on the Nic list still has their DOH, just not the same seniority numbers. The 517 are the exception, not because of their DOH but because of the widebody slots the East brought to the merger. If they had been hired in 1985-1987, after some number of West pilots, they would still be at the top of the Nic list and still have their 1985-1087 DOH. I understand what you're saying, I think - the 517 are in the same order as on the East list (position may have changed since 2007 since there have surely been some retirements).

One could say, based on many posts here, that many/most/all of the 517 support USAPA in the quest for a DOH integrated list despite having nothing to gain personally.

Jim

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

http://articles.boston.com/2011-07-26/business/29817030_1_southwest-spokesman-chris-mainz-southwest-flights-manchester-boston-regional-airport

 

[mrbreeze]

http://articles.boston.com/2011-07-26/business/29817030_1_southwest-spokesman-chris-mainz-southwest-flights-manchester-boston-regional-airport

My captain on this trip commutes PIT to PHL. He said that SWA is totally pulling out of PIT/PHL at the end of the year.

breeze

 

[mrbreeze]

I think we may have a breakthough.

Let me ask this. Did the prevailing attitude from the PHL CP's office change with the merger, or is this possibly a carryover from prior to the merger when in bankruptcy the operations were more critical? Also, are the CLT CPs operating in the same manner?

Here in PHX, the attitude from the CPs office is that they work for the pilots, not the other way around. They remind us when our medicals are due, help us with scheduling when we have a problem and need time off, send us a card on our birthday, and cover our back when we experience an operational issue. The only complaints I have ever heard from West pilots about the CPs office were from West pilots who were in the wrong. i.e. once the F/O was all upset because the CPs would not let him use sick time during family leave, he wanted to be payed but did not want to do it the contractual way and use his vacation, he wanted to save those for later in the year.

So, perhaps the problem is not Tempe but PHL, because the CPs do not know how to operate within the new company. This Yakoff Schmirnoff (whatever the guys name is) issue being one example.



Here is the other problem. You want my support..okay, fine you got it. Captain Wells could use some support..okay, fine, I have said nothing less than I support her decision to refuse to fly the airplane. But, this is a two way street, and exactly how can I give support in a seperate ops company? All I can do is give you a ride to work if you happen to commute from the West. The east has chosen to fail to represent and isolate the West in the usapa land grab, now you are stuck. As long as usapa forces seperate ops, anytime the east experiences a legitimate issue, all any West pilot is going to do is say is "well good luck with that, call us when you are ready for a Nic inclusive contract!"

nic,

The prevoius CP in PHL retired 2-3 yrs ago...that is when Yarko stepped in. Matthews had been in that position for a long time. He had his quirks, like they all do, but wasn't quite as heavy handed as Yarko. However, when Tempe took over, placing Bular, Hogg, Skinner, etc in the middle management positions, it seemed that they became the brown nosed boys overnight. Everything that a pilot needed through the CPs office started being rejected. They evolved away from the CPs that you descreibe in PHX, becoming much more advaserial, especially now.

As far as the CLT CP goes, I haven't been based there in about 12 yrs, so I am not really in tune with his ways of doing things. He used to be a much more level headed guy than the PHL CPs. I did hear that when a couple of pilots were called into his office, he lended them better support than in PHL...however, that is just what I was told.

breeze

 

[mrbreeze]

Breeze,

I have a question. If corporate security got involved because the captain refused the flight. Who called them and informed them that the captain had refused the flight? Who instructed them to "escort" the crew away from the gate? Why wasn't the second crew "escorted" from the gate when they refused the flight?

Somewhere between the company story and the usa ad is the truth.

Thanks

You are probably right, the truth may be in the middle somewhere.

When I had the JS issue in CLT, as soon as I started objecting to the way the agent was doing the exact opposite to what she and I had agreed to, within 2-3 minutes, the CP was on the phone, wanting to talk to me. I spoke to him for about 1 minute. By the time I handed the phone to the agent and turned around, these 2 corporate security goons were escorting the AA pilot up the jetway. It all happened VERY QUICKLY.

I think the agents must have a button hidden on their podiums and when they push it, it's like the 6 bells button in the cockpit......EMERGENCY!!! Then all required code red personel show up at the same time. 😀

Actually, there were 2 agents working the flight, with one of them nowhere in sight, os I think she was at the podium making the calls.

breeze

 

[luvn737s]

The reason this whole thing started is mtc. and dispatch knew this was a FEMALE pilot and thought they could talk her into taking this flight.

Now we can add MTC and Dispatch to the ever-increasing list of boogeymen that USAPA wants to villify.

The whole world is a comic book to these east guys! :wacko:

 

[Pi brat]

In a sense, USAPA can't negotiate section 22 since it takes two sides to negotiate.
Jim

There are two sides, USAPA and the company. USAPA is the legal bargaining agent of the entire US Airways pilot group. My common sense says that they should be allowed to negotiate anything section they want with the company, with the burden of DFR. My common sense doesn't always go along with the law though.

The rest, I pretty much agree. For the majority of west pilots, DOH, even with C&Rs, is not as good as the Nic. I believe DFR II is inevitable with the current proposal (maybe any proposal), and it's going to be a hard sell to a judge or jury that we had to do it to move the group along. I think USAPA's pattern of apparent different treatment of east and west makes DFR II easier for the west. I've always said that, it's just that many westies make definitive statements about other things that don't seem to make sense and I've questioned them.

 

[Pi brat]

I'm not home yet - still on vacation in the land of the midnight sun.

Use of imprecise language is what bugs me. As I said before, every pilot on the Nic list still has their DOH, just not the same seniority numbers. The 517 are the exception, not because of their DOH but because of the widebody slots the East brought to the merger. If they had been hired in 1985-1987, after some number of West pilots, they would still be at the top of the Nic list and still have their 1985-1087 DOH. I understand what you're saying, I think - the 517 are in the same order as on the East list (position may have changed since 2007 since there have surely been some retirements).

One could say, based on many posts here, that many/most/all of the 517 support USAPA in the quest for a DOH integrated list despite having nothing to gain personally.

Jim

Jim, this is a web board, not a court. Imprecise language is kind of the standard, that's why I end up asking a lot of questions. Take the "I'm not home yet" comment. My "welcome back" was to the board, not NC. I'd have to know you were out of town to welcome you home and I didn't know that. 🙄

I know why the 517 are where they are. I know their placement on the Nic was not for "DOH" sake, but the effect was that they are placed on the Nic in the same manner as they are on the current east list, unlike all the rest of us. That's it, that's all I meant. But here's the rub with me and I believe you have partially agreed with me, it was a strange way to protect the widebodies. Many in the 517 were not on the 767 or A330. By using the Capt and F/O slots, Nic gave many of them "super seniority" as compared to how the rest of us were slotted. I think it was very unfair to the west guys, because the top 517 would have been able to use that "super seniority" to take any capt. vacancies in PHX, pushing the the guys that had been senior for a long time down and denying upgrade opportunities to west F/Os. If we continue to fill vacancies the way the east does it, you know all too well how easy it would be for east guys to end up in PHX, just like US guys ended up in CLT despite no bump and flush.

 

[john john]

nic,

The prevoius CP in PHL retired 2-3 yrs ago...

As far as the CLT CP goes, I haven't been based there in about 12 yrs, so I am not really in tune with his ways of doing things. He used to be a much more level headed guy than the PHL CPs. I did hear that when a couple of pilots were called into his office, he lended them better support than in PHL...however, that is just what I was told.

breeze

It seems closely related to read this thread and see the similar between the pilot group and the agent group. The pass pilot group use to be immune to this type of management style. The agent group has been subject to it for some time now. Kind of like the pension among other things

 

[nycbusdriver]

Many in the 517 were not on the 767 or A330. By using the Capt and F/O slots, Nic gave many of them "super seniority" as compared to how the rest of us were slotted.

That's one reason I feel Nicolau really has no clue as to how airline pilot seniority really works, or just made his decisions on whim. Either way, the guy should never be used for this type of work again.

I think it was very unfair to the west guys, because the top 517 would have been able to use that "super seniority" to take any capt. vacancies in PHX, pushing the the guys that had been senior for a long time down and denying upgrade opportunities to west F/Os. If we continue to fill vacancies the way the east does it, you know all too well how easy it would be for east guys to end up in PHX, just like US guys ended up in CLT despite no bump and flush.

I agree with your analysis. Although I don't think that there would have been a torrent of the 517 piling in to PHX/LAS, there would definitely have been a number of former PSA pilots in the 517 (and there are a LOT of them in that category) who still live on the west coast who would have bid PHX and taken the best jobs there. This is again why Nicolau was clueless. There were basically no protections from the 517 given to the PHX/LAS pilots (something USAPA wants to do, and I agree that PHX/LAS should be protected from the very senior east pilots.)

 

[Pi brat]

It is incongruous to read this thread and see the similar between the pilot group and the agent group. The pass pilot group use to be immune to this type of management style. The agent group has been subject to it for some time now. Kind of like the pension among other things

True. My family can attest that the station personnel were treated poorly way before the pilots were.

 

[Pi brat]

That's one reason I feel Nicolau really has no clue as to how airline pilot seniority really works, or just made his decisions on whim. Either way, the guy should never be used for this type of work again.



I agree with your analysis. Although I don't think that there would have been a torrent of the 517 piling in to PHX/LAS, there would definitely have been a number of former PSA pilots in the 517 (and there are a LOT of them in that category) who still live on the west coast who would have bid PHX and taken the best jobs there. This is again why Nicolau was clueless. There were basically no protections from the 517 given to the PHX/LAS pilots (something USAPA wants to do, and I agree that PHX/LAS should be protected from the very senior east pilots.)

I also hope he never does another pilot list. The weird thing about his list is that I agree with a lot of what he says in his award, I just don't see how he came up with his list after what he said!

I agree that there probably wouldn't be a torrent of the 517 to PHX. I doubt the guys that are already on the 330 would bid back to the 320 or 757 to shorten their commute, but who knows. I think I would rather commute to fly the 330 to Europe as I really enjoyed the 767 international when I did it, but I have never had to commute cross country, so I can't say. I just think there will be few vacancies out there for years and with the Nic they would probably all be filled with very senior east, pushing back senior west guys that have been senior for a long time.

It's funny that the junior west pilots rarely bring that up about the NIC. I guess a little senior sacrifice is in order for the obvious windfall of the nic for the west junior.

 

[toganoflex]

That's one reason I feel Nicolau really has no clue as to how airline pilot seniority really works, or just made his decisions on whim. Either way, the guy should never be used for this type of work again.



I agree with your analysis. Although I don't think that there would have been a torrent of the 517 piling in to PHX/LAS, there would definitely have been a number of former PSA pilots in the 517 (and there are a LOT of them in that category) who still live on the west coast who would have bid PHX and taken the best jobs there. This is again why Nicolau was clueless. There were basically no protections from the 517 given to the PHX/LAS pilots (something USAPA wants to do, and I agree that PHX/LAS should be protected from the very senior east pilots.)

You guys continually fail to mention the pilot neutrals that were involved in the process. Nicolau didn't make his decision in a vacuum. or on a whim. It was a well crafted and very thought out award.

Its the same award DAL and NWA got.

And you can sure as hell bet that there would have been a torrent of east pilots coming in to PHX. There were east pilots coming into PHX the week the merger was announced looking for houses. Some even bought thinking they'd "retire where I worked." Now they'll be stuck commuting until they retire.

And with the desperate desire to be Captains, many an east pilot would take first available and come to PHX. There would be a huge influx of east pilots taking those seats alone to capture the upgrade.

Think what you will, but Nicolau put out a fair award. You guys hate it because you don't have access to our upgrades and most of you won't see the left seat because of that.