US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

Around 75%

Top or bottom? Or in other words, are you near the top 25%, or bottom 25%?

 

[cleardirect]

That's one reason I feel Nicolau really has no clue as to how airline pilot seniority really works, or just made his decisions on whim. Either way, the guy should never be used for this type of work again.

Really. So a guy that has done countless airline seniority integration has no clue how seniority list work. But you being the ever experienced pilot do. The guy that has no dog in the fight does not know how to put together a list but you with everything to lose or gain does. Wow the arragance is stunning.

I agree with your analysis. Although I don't think that there would have been a torrent of the 517 piling in to PHX/LAS, there would definitely have been a number of former PSA pilots in the 517 (and there are a LOT of them in that category) who still live on the west coast who would have bid PHX and taken the best jobs there. This is again why Nicolau was clueless. There were basically no protections from the 517 given to the PHX/LAS pilots (something USAPA wants to do, and I agree that PHX/LAS should be protected from the very senior east pilots.)

What don't you understand here. The west pilot know this and that is part of the deal. Yes east pilots are going to come to PHX and some are going to be senior. We know this and accept it but do you hear any west pilot crying about it? NO! But by God we hear east pilot screaming about west pilots coming east. Selfish!

 

[Pi brat]

Let's be accurate here. Brucia did not disagree over the placement of all of the furloughed pilots. He disagreed with the placement of the furloughed pilots that had been recalled AFTER the PID. He wanted POST merger conditions to improve east pilots. So are you saying that if Nicolau had given a couple hundred furloughed pilots a little better position POST merger you would have accepted the list as is?




You see that it says "some consideration" It does not say DOH or LOS or anything. Just to be clear this is also what Brucia said.




Yes the Nicolau does allow access to PHX by anyone on the list. The PHX pilots understand that and accept it. That is part of the deal. Are you now saying that is a bad thing for west pilots and that not everything in the award was a windfall for the west? That Nicolau was balancing the two sides?

Ok, I don't have Brucia's comments in front of me, so I will take your word for it and go with recalled furloughed pilots. So, that goes back to my old question of why he used POST MERGER A/C numbers and seniority lists while using pre-merger status. Don't remember anyone addressing the fairness of that. Maybe Nic's use of 07 hulls is why he said recalled pilots should be considered? Why don't you guys take that back to Nic since you are all into fair and honest?
I never said Brucia said it should have been los or anything else.

 

[cleardirect]

Ok, I don't have Brucia's comments in front of me, so I will take your word for it and go with recalled furloughed pilots. So, that goes back to my old question of why he used POST MERGER A/C numbers and seniority lists while using pre-merger status. Don't remember anyone addressing the fairness of that. Maybe Nic's use of 07 hulls is why he said recalled pilots should be considered? Why don't you guys take that back to Nic since you are all into fair and honest?
I never said Brucia said it should have been los or anything else.

So are you saying that if 300 POST merger furloughed pilots had been placed at the bottom of the list senior to Dave O'Dell you and the east pilots would have accepted the Nicolau list and we would have moved on?

That usapa would not have been created and we would most likely have a contract in place? That all of this is because you think 300 east furloughed pilots should have been moved up 300 positions. The entire 5000 US Airways pilot group has suffered massive lose of money and benefits because 300 east pilots did not get what they wanted POST merger.

 

[Pi brat]

So are you saying that if 300 POST merger furloughed pilots had been placed at the bottom of the list senior to Dave O'Dell you and the east pilots would have accepted the Nicolau list and we would have moved on?

That usapa would not have been created and we would most likely have a contract in place? That all of this is because you think 300 east furloughed pilots should have been moved up 300 positions. The entire 5000 US Airways pilot group has suffered massive lose of money and benefits because 300 east pilots did not get what they wanted POST merger.

Nicolau used POST merger fleets for his slot, but PRE merger status. Had he not done this, and at least the pilots that were already recalled were slotted ahead of Dave, yes, I think this could have been avoided. The fact that a 15 or so LOS pilots was placed behind a pilot that was either in indoc, or just out, is what inflamed the east so much and it led to a whole lot of other anger and some misinformation. I believe it was the tipping point. Remember, USAPA didn't win by that much, and lacking that fuel to the fire, ALPA might have stayed on the property. Now, we would have still had the right to not ratify a joint contract and I think that would have been a factor of was the company willing to pay enough for enough pilots to ratify it.

My CMesque qualifying is because this is all IMHO. And he didn't, so we didn't, and here we are!

 

[cleardirect]

Nicolau used POST merger fleets for his slot, but PRE merger status. Had he not done this, and at least the pilots that were already recalled were slotted ahead of Dave, yes, I think this could have been avoided. The fact that a 15 or so LOS pilots was placed behind a pilot that was either in indoc or just out is what inflamed the east so much and it led to a whole lot of other anger and some misinformation. I believe it was the tipping point. Remember, USAPA didn't win by that much, and lacking that fuel to the fire, ALPA might have stayed on the property. Now, we would have still had the right to not ratify a joint contract and I think that would have been a factor of was the company willing to pay enough for enough pilots to ratify it.

My CMesque qualifying is because this is all IMHO. And he didn't, so we didn't, and here we are!

OK just wanted to get that straight. That 300 furloughed pilots are holding up the rest of us from getting a better contract from moving forward together. That usapa has filed multiple law suits and attacked the west at every turn because of 300 furloughed east guys.

Got it. I sure hope the retiring guys keep that in mind when they leave next year.

 

[mrbreeze]

My captain on this trip commutes PIT to PHL. He said that SWA is totally pulling out of PIT/PHL at the end of the year.

breeze

bad news for Pit commuters....

http://www.bizjournals.com/pittsburgh/news/2011/07/27/southwest-to-cut-philadelphia-route.html?ana=yfcpc

 

[CallawayGolf]

bad news for Pit commuters....

http://www.bizjournals.com/pittsburgh/news/2011/07/27/southwest-to-cut-philadelphia-route.html?ana=yfcpc

If only WN had the foresight to charge for bags like the rest of the industry does maybe they wouldn't need to reduce or eliminate service to 81 markets they currently serve, including PIT. Looks like their Q2 earnings haven't been released yet. I wonder if they expect the analysts to be disappointed in their results?

 

[Pi brat]

OK just wanted to get that straight. That 300 furloughed pilots are holding up the rest of us from getting a better contract from moving forward together. That usapa has filed multiple law suits and attacked the west at every turn because of 300 furloughed east guys.

Got it. I sure hope the retiring guys keep that in mind when they leave next year.

I really can't figure out if you are that ignorant or that big of an ahole. I said that's what started us down the road we are on. There are lots of reasons we have stayed on it and people like you are a prime reason.

I answered your question and with what you see as a stroke of genius, you twist my answer into something else. Want to answer my questions yet?

 

[mrbreeze]

If only WN had the foresight to charge for bags like the rest of the industry does maybe they wouldn't need to reduce or eliminate service to 81 markets they currently serve, including PIT. Looks like their Q2 earnings haven't been released yet. I wonder if they expect the analysts to be disappointed in their results?

I agree. While commuting to and from DEN, I have overheard phone conversations where business travelers were talking about SW's tickets being a bit higher than USAir's, so they chose to ride with us.

I gag everytime I see a TV commercial in DEN where SW brags about bags flyin for free......sure the bags fly free, but the initial ticket is $25 higher. I have passed this propaganda on to all friends and FB ppl, so maybe their ploy isn't working.

well....not that I have any control...LOL

breeze

 

[toganoflex]

If only WN had the foresight to charge for bags like the rest of the industry does maybe they wouldn't need to reduce or eliminate service to 81 markets they currently serve, including PIT. Looks like their Q2 earnings haven't been released yet. I wonder if they expect the analysts to be disappointed in their results?

Shareholder really want them to start bringing in that ancillary revenue.

That's a ton of money they're leaving on the table.

 

[high*flyer]

They think that by putting DOH into their C & B that they have no choice.

Pretty lame.

Oh well, they're paying for it.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Shareholder really want them to start bringing in that ancillary revenue.

That's a ton of money they're leaving on the table.

Yes it is. Using US figures as a baseline, I would guesstimate that the figure would be around $1.5B in lost income as those fees go straight to the bottom line. It takes a whole lot of RSMs to make up for $1.5B in net income. So, at a generous 5% in average net income (in 2010 the earned 1% NI), it would take $30B in PAX ticket revenues to earn a $1.5B in income. That would be on top of the roughly $30B in revenues they had over the last three years. I've wondered for years how they could possibly explain away this lost income to investors when there is no possible way to make it up through a market share advantage.

 

[high*flyer]

I understand your previously stated concerns about East pilots taking West upgrades,so you must be aware that the East pilots have the same concern. What I don't understand is how The NIC allows the east pilots to take advantage of the retirements from the East, and DOH with C&R prevents the west from upgrading into those retirements from the west.

 

[toganoflex]

Yes it is. Using US figures as a baseline, I would guesstimate that the figure would be around $1.5B in lost income as those fees go straight to the bottom line. It takes a whole lot of RSMs to make up for $1.5B in net income. So, at a generous 5% in average net income (in 2010 the earned 1% NI), it would take $30B in PAX ticket revenues to earn a $1.5B in income. That would be on top of the roughly $30B in revenues they had over the last three years. I've wondered for years how they could possibly explain away this lost income to investors when there is no possible way to make it up through a market share advantage.

Parker admitted that we probably lose a number of passengers because of bag fees. But those are not the desirable business fares we're losing and the revenue we generate with fees more than makes up for those lower fares that we do lose to SWA.

And business pax actually don't mind the fares. They know how to pack and can minimize or eliminate them through the FF programs.