US Pilots Labor Discussion

[toganoflex]

The rest, I pretty much agree. For the majority of west pilots, DOH, even with C&Rs, is not as good as the Nic. I believe DFR II is inevitable with the current proposal (maybe any proposal), and it's going to be a hard sell to a judge or jury that we had to do it to move the group along. I think USAPA's pattern of apparent different treatment of east and west makes DFR II easier for the west.

This is the smartest post by an eastie that I've read to date on the board. Congratulations.

I've always said that, it's just that many westies make definitive statements about other things that don't seem to make sense and I've questioned them.

The statements aren't 100% definitive, but they're based solidly on fact.

I wish you guys out there would dig deeper and go beyond what that one man BPR sends out to you. You'd be amazed at what they're hiding/spinning.

Have you noticed how much coverage USAPA has given ALPA's loss? Zero. Wonder why?

 

[Pi brat]

You guys continually fail to mention the pilot neutrals that were involved in the process. Nicolau didn't make his decision in a vacuum. or on a whim. It was a well crafted and very thought out award.

Its the same award DAL and NWA got.

And you can sure as hell bet that there would have been a torrent of east pilots coming in to PHX. There were east pilots coming into PHX the week the merger was announced looking for houses. Some even bought thinking they'd "retire where I worked." Now they'll be stuck commuting until they retire.

And with the desperate desire to be Captains, many an east pilot would take first available and come to PHX. There would be a huge influx of east pilots taking those seats alone to capture the upgrade.

Think what you will, but Nicolau put out a fair award. You guys hate it because you don't have access to our upgrades and most of you won't see the left seat because of that.

Brucia disagreed with Nicolau over the placement of furloughed pilots, especially long longevity furloughed pilots. He lacked the power to do anything about it! To me this was the biggest mistake in the award and the straw that broke the camels back. You guys like to believe that anything other than DOH would have put is here, that is just not true. Didn't DL/NW have a panel of arbitrators that helped that situation?

Which would allow more access to PHX immediately, Nic or DOH with C&R, and please state why you think the way you do.

 

[Pi brat]

This is the smartest post by an eastie that I've read to date on the board. Congratulations.



The statements aren't 100% definitive, but they're based solidly on fact.

I wish you guys out there would dig deeper and go beyond what that one man BPR sends out to you. You'd be amazed at what they're hiding/spinning.

Have you noticed how much coverage USAPA has given ALPA's loss? Zero. Wonder why?

Thanks for the congrats, that gives me a warm fuzzy. I manage to piss off both sides of this thing by saying what I think. Diehard DOH supporters don't like to hear me question whether we will lost DFR II, but I think we should consider that chance and it's not disloyal to one's side to present valid questions. When USAPA does things like the C18 suit and not seeking west members on the NAC, it builds a supporting case for DFR. West guys don't like to hear me say what cost has been to all of us, what may or may not happen, etc.

As far as statements based on fact, not always. Many of them on here and other places are opinions stated as facts. I heard it stated pretty matter of fact that the Addington would be upheld because the 9th didn't lift the injunction. There is no way to state as fact what a jury may or may not do, yet that happens all the time here.

 

[toganoflex]

Brucia disagreed with Nicolau over the placement of furloughed pilots, especially long longevity furloughed pilots. He lacked the power to do anything about it! To me this was the biggest mistake in the award and the straw that broke the camels back. You guys like to believe that anything other than DOH would have put is here, that is just not true. Didn't DL/NW have a panel of arbitrators that helped that situation?

Which would allow more access to PHX immediately, Nic or DOH with C&R, and please state why you think the way you do.

That was the ONLY disagreement with Nic's decision. THE ONLY ONE.

He made his two cents known and, personally, I disagreed with him as obviously did Nicolau.

Do you know anything about the east's DOH with C&R proposal? Let me clue you in, it was simply DOH. You guys added the C&R because it looked better than DOH alone.

So to answer you question, Nic would have let you guys into PHX with more access and I AM COMPLETELY 100% OK WITH THAT. I ACCEPT THAT AND TAKE FULL RESPONSIBILITY AS TO BEING DISPLACED ACCORDINGLY. That's what happens in mergers.

But your DOH with "C&R's" was a slap in the face to us. It was merely and end-run around the Nic to get DOH. And that's NEVER going to happen.

 

[mrbreeze]

That's one reason I feel Nicolau really has no clue as to how airline pilot seniority really works, or just made his decisions on whim. Either way, the guy should never be used for this type of work again.



I agree with your analysis. Although I don't think that there would have been a torrent of the 517 piling in to PHX/LAS, there would definitely have been a number of former PSA pilots in the 517 (and there are a LOT of them in that category) who still live on the west coast who would have bid PHX and taken the best jobs there. This is again why Nicolau was clueless. There were basically no protections from the 517 given to the PHX/LAS pilots (something USAPA wants to do, and I agree that PHX/LAS should be protected from the very senior east pilots.)

very good point

 

[Pi brat]

That was the ONLY disagreement with Nic's decision. THE ONLY ONE.

He made his two cents known and, personally, I disagreed with him as obviously did Nicolau.

Do you know anything about the east's DOH with C&R proposal? Let me clue you in, it was simply DOH. You guys added the C&R because it looked better than DOH alone.

So to answer you question, Nic would have let you guys into PHX with more access and I AM COMPLETELY 100% OK WITH THAT. I ACCEPT THAT AND TAKE FULL RESPONSIBILITY AS TO BEING DISPLACED ACCORDINGLY. That's what happens in mergers.

But your DOH with "C&R's" was a slap in the face to us. It was merely and end-run around the Nic to get DOH. And that's NEVER going to happen.

So, what is your seniority on the west list?

The only disagreement was the biggie! Had Nic listened it might have changed everything!

 

[mrbreeze]

oops

was that go-around flaps or gear up? lol

disregard

 

[cleardirect]

There are two sides, USAPA and the company. USAPA is the legal bargaining agent of the entire US Airways pilot group. My common sense says that they should be allowed to negotiate anything section they want with the company, with the burden of DFR. My common sense doesn't always go along with the law though.

The rest, I pretty much agree. For the majority of west pilots, DOH, even with C&Rs, is not as good as the Nic. I believe DFR II is inevitable with the current proposal (maybe any proposal), and it's going to be a hard sell to a judge or jury that we had to do it to move the group along. I think USAPA's pattern of apparent different treatment of east and west makes DFR II easier for the west. I've always said that, it's just that many westies make definitive statements about other things that don't seem to make sense and I've questioned them.

I think that you are beginning to understand the position that usapa has put all of us in. No a union can not ignore arbitration. But you are correct all of the actions that usapa has taken adds up to a very large DFR case. The defense that usapa was formed to "move the groups along". Fails badly. Nicolau award came out in May 07. ALPA was alloed to work until April 08 where usaspa replaced them with the stated reason of "move the group along" "to break the log jam".

Here we are 3.5 years later and we are no closer to moving along then before. I think a jury or judge is going to look at that and say that you never gave the process a chance and with all of the other evidence usapa never represented the west pilots fairly.

 

[cleardirect]

Brucia disagreed with Nicolau over the placement of furloughed pilots, especially long longevity furloughed pilots. He lacked the power to do anything about it! To me this was the biggest mistake in the award and the straw that broke the camels back. You guys like to believe that anything other than DOH would have put is here, that is just not true. Didn't DL/NW have a panel of arbitrators that helped that situation?

Which would allow more access to PHX immediately, Nic or DOH with C&R, and please state why you think the way you do.

Let's be accurate here. Brucia did not disagree over the placement of all of the furloughed pilots. He disagreed with the placement of the furloughed pilots that had been recalled AFTER the PID. He wanted POST merger conditions to improve east pilots. So are you saying that if Nicolau had given a couple hundred furloughed pilots a little better position POST merger you would have accepted the list as is?

At a minimum, it is my opinion that the US Airways pilots, who had already received notice of their opportunity to return to work from furlough, should have received some consideration for the substantial time they have already invested in their airline.

You see that it says "some consideration" It does not say DOH or LOS or anything. Just to be clear this is also what Brucia said.

Finally I would like to a reaffirm my opinion that the Chairman Nicolau demonstrated exceptional judgment and wisdom working through many very difficult and challenging issues including the disparate aircraft types, routes, compensation systems, and pilot staffing formulas to mention just a few. It has been a privilege to work together with Chairman Nicolau and Captain Gillen on this Opinion and Award.

Yes the Nicolau does allow access to PHX by anyone on the list. The PHX pilots understand that and accept it. That is part of the deal. Are you now saying that is a bad thing for west pilots and that not everything in the award was a windfall for the west? That Nicolau was balancing the two sides?

 

[Pi brat]

I think that you are beginning to understand the position that usapa has put all of us in. No a union can not ignore arbitration. But you are correct all of the actions that usapa has taken adds up to a very large DFR case. The defense that usapa was formed to "move the groups along". Fails badly. Nicolau award came out in May 07. ALPA was alloed to work until April 08 where usaspa replaced them with the stated reason of "move the group along" "to break the log jam".

Here we are 3.5 years later and we are no closer to moving along then before. I think a jury or judge is going to look at that and say that you never gave the process a chance and with all of the other evidence usapa never represented the west pilots fairly.

Beginning?

You never answered my questions. Thought you might be flying, what say you?

 

[toganoflex]

So, what is your seniority on the west list?

The only disagreement was the biggie! Had Nic listened it might have changed everything!

Around 75%

 

[cynic]

Of course, all this is hypothetical. USAPA isn't going to give the Westies the same protection Nic did unless ordered to use the Nic by a court.

And that is the reality of the situation in a nutshell. All of the hypothetical stuff is interesting to debate, but we all know what USAPA intends to negotiate.

 

[toganoflex]

Let's be accurate here. Brucia did not disagree over the placement of all of the furloughed pilots. He disagreed with the placement of the furloughed pilots that had been recalled AFTER the PID. He wanted POST merger conditions to improve east pilots. So are you saying that if Nicolau had given a couple hundred furloughed pilots a little better position POST merger you would have accepted the list as is?




You see that it says "some consideration" It does not say DOH or LOS or anything. Just to be clear this is also what Brucia said.

Amazing what you can find when you actually read the award and transcripts.

Wish more east guys would try it.

 

[Pi brat]

Amazing what you can find when you actually read the award and transcripts.

Wish more east guys would try it.

I don't remember you replying to my questions of why Nic used 05 status, but 07 slots. See, I've actually read it, you?

 

[toganoflex]

And that is the reality of the situation in a nutshell. All of the hypothetical stuff is interesting to debate, but we all know what USAPA intends to negotiate.

They think that by putting DOH into their C & B that they have no choice.

Pretty lame.

Oh well, they're paying for it.